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- Thread starter Gary D.
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Boater Dan
Guest
First I would like to thank the admin's for giving us this avenue to share. There is no way it can't be a winner.
Now, I am one of the PSD's that everyone fears and I will admit it. I was originally trained 24 years ago when my FD had a team. We were originally trained by a LDS whose owner was a former Navy Seal. Our team fell apart and I dropped out of diving for a number of years. I am now re-involved with a neighboring fire company who runs a dive team. I have inadequate training and we are looking into avenues to improve that. We have a number of divers who have been responsible for evidence and body recoveries and have operated without indcident for a number of years. External divers to the team are required to supply their own equipment so we have no compatibility to the limited gear the team owns. We have applied for Federal funding to upgrade our equipment but will not find out if that happens until later this year.
I have upgraded my gear over the past couple of years to hopefully insure my safety and survival. I have purchased my own AGA and have since added a pony bottle for potential equipment failures and in the event of my stupidity and and out of air situation.
While I lack formal training, I study and learn from a variety of sources, case studies, and hopefully from sharing within this PSD community. Someone mentioned the benefit/risk assessment. I believe strongly in the concept before engaging in diving. There is no need to put divers in jeapardy in no gain situations.
Thanks!
Dan
Now, I am one of the PSD's that everyone fears and I will admit it. I was originally trained 24 years ago when my FD had a team. We were originally trained by a LDS whose owner was a former Navy Seal. Our team fell apart and I dropped out of diving for a number of years. I am now re-involved with a neighboring fire company who runs a dive team. I have inadequate training and we are looking into avenues to improve that. We have a number of divers who have been responsible for evidence and body recoveries and have operated without indcident for a number of years. External divers to the team are required to supply their own equipment so we have no compatibility to the limited gear the team owns. We have applied for Federal funding to upgrade our equipment but will not find out if that happens until later this year.
I have upgraded my gear over the past couple of years to hopefully insure my safety and survival. I have purchased my own AGA and have since added a pony bottle for potential equipment failures and in the event of my stupidity and and out of air situation.
While I lack formal training, I study and learn from a variety of sources, case studies, and hopefully from sharing within this PSD community. Someone mentioned the benefit/risk assessment. I believe strongly in the concept before engaging in diving. There is no need to put divers in jeapardy in no gain situations.
Thanks!
Dan
OP
On being trained by Navy divers for PSD work, FORGET IT. To be blunt, In the civilian world, WE DON'T KNOW CRAP!!!!!
The world of military diving is so different that when we move from the military to the civilian life we need to be trained for that specific job.
The big difference in us is that in training they tried their best to kill us. You either let them kill you, keep trying or quit. You have two ways to fail and one to way to make it. Their goal was to make us quit and in the rest periods they showed us how to dive.
Like they told us in school, there are two groups in the service that will die for sure if they quit. Divers and pilots and they were going to make sure we weren't quitters and could finish a mission or assignment.
The results were, for the most part, very calm relaxed divers that don't let very much bother them. 150' and lose your air in zero vis, we know where the surface is and how to get there safely. If it meant a dcs hit, so be it but we are not going to panic and die on the bottom.
Thats the only difference. We are not super heros that can do everything. Some people think so but it just isn't that way. We are just like everyone else but maybe just calmer and more laid back.
So don't get it in your mind that a Navy diver, nomatter what kind, can teach any type of diving in the civilian world.
Two of my good friends are retired Navy divers. One a 25 year Seal and the other a 30 year Master. None of the three of us knew Jack Poop about PSD diving at first. So I got certified, and recertified, and recertified.
30+ years as a PSD later I'm still figuring it out. It is a never ending learning process. No two dives are alike and your emotions will not be the same from dive to dive. You will laugh about some recoveries and cry for days on others. Still others will stick with you for a lifetime.
Gary D.
The world of military diving is so different that when we move from the military to the civilian life we need to be trained for that specific job.
The big difference in us is that in training they tried their best to kill us. You either let them kill you, keep trying or quit. You have two ways to fail and one to way to make it. Their goal was to make us quit and in the rest periods they showed us how to dive.
Like they told us in school, there are two groups in the service that will die for sure if they quit. Divers and pilots and they were going to make sure we weren't quitters and could finish a mission or assignment.
The results were, for the most part, very calm relaxed divers that don't let very much bother them. 150' and lose your air in zero vis, we know where the surface is and how to get there safely. If it meant a dcs hit, so be it but we are not going to panic and die on the bottom.
Thats the only difference. We are not super heros that can do everything. Some people think so but it just isn't that way. We are just like everyone else but maybe just calmer and more laid back.
So don't get it in your mind that a Navy diver, nomatter what kind, can teach any type of diving in the civilian world.
Two of my good friends are retired Navy divers. One a 25 year Seal and the other a 30 year Master. None of the three of us knew Jack Poop about PSD diving at first. So I got certified, and recertified, and recertified.
30+ years as a PSD later I'm still figuring it out. It is a never ending learning process. No two dives are alike and your emotions will not be the same from dive to dive. You will laugh about some recoveries and cry for days on others. Still others will stick with you for a lifetime.
Gary D.
indypddiver
Guest
We are lucky enough to have a former longtime Navy diver on our team, but unless someone else told you what he used to do you'd never find out. He would be the absolute last one to ever tell you. He is probably the most laid back, unassuming guy you'd ever meet. He has been diving in places and environments that we probably couldn't imagine, yet he's still the first guy to jump at training and to try to better himself. What an example to follow!
Thought that I'd throw this in here...it is kind of the other end of the spectrum.
I'm a Captain on the Reno Fire Department, assigned to the HazMat Team. When I was a rookie, I came from a background of teaching diving at UCD, science/research diving, chamber operator and surface supplied including bell/sat.
With my background, I was quickly offered a slot on the Department's water entry team. After attending a few training sessions, I quietly excused myself, and still have no involvement other than chats.
Quite frankly, I didn't want to die, or be present when a brother or sister did. The proceedures, equipment, and especially experience were far below what would be the minimum for even a simple entry or recovery. And, I realized (pretty quickly) how hard it would be to change that. There still has been very little change.
Unfortunately, I still see the same thing so often when I watch the TV. I'm sure you see it too...video of a PSD team somewhere, doing some recovery, with a quick look at gear or proceedures that turns your blood cold.
In many ways, I equate a lot of PSD to HazMat. Both have equivalent opportunities to make a life threatening mistake. Our team goes to HazMat calls every week, trains division-level for one day a month, and has an all-hands training scenario twice a year, and they still aren't sharp enough. For most PSD response areas, I would hazard a guess the call volume or training isn't anywhere near that. And diving leaves no room for being unsharp.
For those on a large department, with excellent support from administration and adequate training, my hat's off to you. Keep up the good work.
This forum is a wonderful addition to ScubaBoard, and it's my sincere wish that some of the information sharing will help prevent a loss.
All the best, James
I'm a Captain on the Reno Fire Department, assigned to the HazMat Team. When I was a rookie, I came from a background of teaching diving at UCD, science/research diving, chamber operator and surface supplied including bell/sat.
With my background, I was quickly offered a slot on the Department's water entry team. After attending a few training sessions, I quietly excused myself, and still have no involvement other than chats.
Quite frankly, I didn't want to die, or be present when a brother or sister did. The proceedures, equipment, and especially experience were far below what would be the minimum for even a simple entry or recovery. And, I realized (pretty quickly) how hard it would be to change that. There still has been very little change.
Unfortunately, I still see the same thing so often when I watch the TV. I'm sure you see it too...video of a PSD team somewhere, doing some recovery, with a quick look at gear or proceedures that turns your blood cold.
In many ways, I equate a lot of PSD to HazMat. Both have equivalent opportunities to make a life threatening mistake. Our team goes to HazMat calls every week, trains division-level for one day a month, and has an all-hands training scenario twice a year, and they still aren't sharp enough. For most PSD response areas, I would hazard a guess the call volume or training isn't anywhere near that. And diving leaves no room for being unsharp.
For those on a large department, with excellent support from administration and adequate training, my hat's off to you. Keep up the good work.
This forum is a wonderful addition to ScubaBoard, and it's my sincere wish that some of the information sharing will help prevent a loss.
All the best, James
Natasha
Contributor
indypddiver:
You're very welcome. Glad we could help. And let me just say a HUGE thank you back for all you do!!!
OP
This happened a couple of years ago on what should have been a relatively easy search and recovery.
Two college kids were on one of our mid sized lakes in a canoe. They are about 100 yards from shore when the canoe flips spilling them both into the chilly waters. The female makes it to shore but her male companion didnt.
We go off the victim and witness directions as to last seen location and start our search at a central point and work outward. The bottom is a gradual slope from zero to 50 then falls quickly to 125.
We search for 3 days with nothing. Along with hour upon hour of diving I had the camera running and was looking at the monitor so long I was seeing spots. After the second day I requested the SS which was 2 days out.
Other than no find in good clear water everything went smooth.
Now the problem we had. But before I start, let me say that we de-personalize ourselves with the victim. We are looking for an object. I dont want to know very much when it comes to personal stuff about the victim until we are done. Sounds cruel but doing that lets us focus on the task at hand and not think about the victim personally.
Every time one of our boats hit the shore for a break, several family members were there with pleas and 2 x 3 photographs of their son. We couldnt look anywhere without seeing them. Then the father would follow us around, not getting in our way by any means, but always being in a position so we would see his sons poster size photo.
After 2 full days of this the department chaplain pulled me aside and wanted to know what was wrong with me. I told him I was fine but we have been friends way to long and he was the only one that could see it. I told him I was looking for a young man, just a kid. Bob knew beforehand what was wrong but he wanted to hear it from me.
Ill tell you later what we did but I want to hear some input from your end. Keep in mind that nobody here is going to flame anyone out for what ever you think might or should have been done. Lets just look at it as some training with no real right answer.
Gary D.
Two college kids were on one of our mid sized lakes in a canoe. They are about 100 yards from shore when the canoe flips spilling them both into the chilly waters. The female makes it to shore but her male companion didnt.
We go off the victim and witness directions as to last seen location and start our search at a central point and work outward. The bottom is a gradual slope from zero to 50 then falls quickly to 125.
We search for 3 days with nothing. Along with hour upon hour of diving I had the camera running and was looking at the monitor so long I was seeing spots. After the second day I requested the SS which was 2 days out.
Other than no find in good clear water everything went smooth.
Now the problem we had. But before I start, let me say that we de-personalize ourselves with the victim. We are looking for an object. I dont want to know very much when it comes to personal stuff about the victim until we are done. Sounds cruel but doing that lets us focus on the task at hand and not think about the victim personally.
Every time one of our boats hit the shore for a break, several family members were there with pleas and 2 x 3 photographs of their son. We couldnt look anywhere without seeing them. Then the father would follow us around, not getting in our way by any means, but always being in a position so we would see his sons poster size photo.
After 2 full days of this the department chaplain pulled me aside and wanted to know what was wrong with me. I told him I was fine but we have been friends way to long and he was the only one that could see it. I told him I was looking for a young man, just a kid. Bob knew beforehand what was wrong but he wanted to hear it from me.
Ill tell you later what we did but I want to hear some input from your end. Keep in mind that nobody here is going to flame anyone out for what ever you think might or should have been done. Lets just look at it as some training with no real right answer.
Gary D.
Gary - Pretty new to the PSD feild but I would say that the bystanders need to be staged somewhere away from you. It would be hard to do because they may not understand but probably only the IC should talk to them.
A bit about me. Started diving in '91 but have only been diving regularly for 3 years and have also been pursuing more tech like diving for rec stuff (but thats another issue). I joined our FD water resuce team as a diver last year. We are a small full-time fire/ems department with 8 divers and 12 surface support on the team. We are no where near as busy as some of you! Probably average 1-2 recoveries a year and about 20 calls a year.
Even though I'm green I have been shocked by how inadequate the methods are that the team uses. I'm trying to get our team to move out of the "dark ages" and into a more modren approach. Some days its frustrating and I feel like quitting but I intend to give it my best effort. The one thing I have going for me is our department is pretty small and most of the team members are young and not as narrow minded as management can be.
fdog - I completely understand!
Mark M
A bit about me. Started diving in '91 but have only been diving regularly for 3 years and have also been pursuing more tech like diving for rec stuff (but thats another issue). I joined our FD water resuce team as a diver last year. We are a small full-time fire/ems department with 8 divers and 12 surface support on the team. We are no where near as busy as some of you! Probably average 1-2 recoveries a year and about 20 calls a year.
Even though I'm green I have been shocked by how inadequate the methods are that the team uses. I'm trying to get our team to move out of the "dark ages" and into a more modren approach. Some days its frustrating and I feel like quitting but I intend to give it my best effort. The one thing I have going for me is our department is pretty small and most of the team members are young and not as narrow minded as management can be.
fdog - I completely understand!
Mark M
jkennedy
Guest
Thank You All For Your Service!
jkennedy
Guest
Thank you All for your service!
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