Suunto EON Core? Where did this come from?

[tbone1004]

@Diving Dubai

I will clarify that while I would have no problem diving it, the RGBM is certainly a deal breaker when purchasing or recommending a computer. I.e. if Suunto decided to give me a Core or a Steel I'd have no problem using it when teaching or doing most fun dives. It however is not a computer that I would recommend to others because there is no real control over the conservatism which I think is important for all divers to really understand instead of blindly following computers

 

[Diving Dubai]

Hi @Diving Dubai

Not sure why you picked me out this time. I have agreed with you previously, the Suunto fused RGBM algorithm set at -2 has almost exactly the same NDLs as DSAT on 1st dive, both more than Buhlmann ZH-L16C set at 45/95, particularly at depth. I have not had a chance to verify that the repetitive dives continue to be the same as DSAT, perhaps you have.

Good diving, Craig

I wasn't picking on you, sorry if it seemed that way, it was in a ref to a comment you made up thread where you stated it was similar to DSAT but I named you only so you would see the info I've gleaned for repetitive dives against Bühlmann.

I've not had a chance to dive it against a DSAT computer, - with your experience of DSAT and Bühlmann how does DSAT fair when you push it into deco?

 

[Diving Dubai]

@Diving Dubai
because there is no real control over the conservatism which I think is important for all divers to really understand instead of blindly following computers

Okay, I understand where you're coming from, but for the sake of discussion You can, using DM5 see what affect each level of conservatism has on a planned dive. Granted you would need to compare say Bühlmann on another planner to get a close match to another computer.

However, do people using say the perdix on Rec mode understand teh same? what about those who switch to tech mode and blindly input some GF that they're read that others use on teh Internet, or that their mate uses?

I know that you, like me, alter our conservatism depending on the dive we're doing or if we're no hydrated or had a bad nights sleep etc, others don't. I would suggest that the vast majority leave their computers in teh default setting, whilst others just move to the most liberal setting and trust that the manufacturer will keep them safe

In this regard it doesn't matter what type of computer you have?

 

[scubadada]

I wasn't picking on you, sorry if it seemed that way, it was in a ref to a comment you made up thread where you stated it was similar to DSAT but I named you only so you would see the info I've gleaned for repetitive dives against Bühlmann.

I've not had a chance to dive it against a DSAT computer, - with your experience of DSAT and Bühlmann how does DSAT fair when you push it into deco?

I am mostly a rec diver and do light deco in about 5-6% of my dives. DSAT was developed for the PADI RDP and computers with rec diving in mind. In my experience, DSAT does fine for light deco, seemingly piling on the deco at the shallow stop. I have never done more than 15 minutes at 10 feet. DSAT seems to reasonably penalize repetitive dives by requiring a longer SI after a deco dive. I don't think anyone would consider DSAT an acceptable tec algotithm. I've been diving a Nitek Q for the last year and a half as my backup, I've learned a lot about Buhlmann with GF and comparisons to DSAT in rec diving and light deco.

 

[tbone1004]

Okay, I understand where you're coming from, but for the sake of discussion You can, using DM5 see what affect each level of conservatism has on a planned dive. Granted you would need to compare say Bühlmann on another planner to get a close match to another computer.

However, do people using say the perdix on Rec mode understand teh same? what about those who switch to tech mode and blindly input some GF that they're read that others use on teh Internet, or that their mate uses?

I know that you, like me, alter our conservatism depending on the dive we're doing or if we're no hydrated or had a bad nights sleep etc, others don't. I would suggest that the vast majority leave their computers in teh default setting, whilst others just move to the most liberal setting and trust that the manufacturer will keep them safe

In this regard it doesn't matter what type of computer you have?

correct. That said for me as an instructor a huge thing is lockouts, and random penalties if the computer thinks I messed up. For the next 8 days I will be teaching with a university program. Students I have never met before, with things that I am unable to predict. We have had Suunto's lock out on these dives even though no deco obligation was reached because of the sawtooth nature of the profile and the ascent rates we assume. They were Zoops so here isn't a lot they can tell us. That is a deal breaker for me and the reason that I don't own a @Deepblu.Inc Cosmiq. If they freed up the algorithm from lock-outs, and even if they just had GF setpoints similar to the Rec- Nitrox mode from @Shearwater I'd be perfectly content using it for recreational diving. I will be purchasing one of the Deep Six computers to evaluate as soon as it is available for the reasons given above.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I've been diving a Nitek Q for the last year and a half as my backup, I've learned a lot about Buhlmann with GF and comparisons to DSAT in rec diving and light deco.

As I expected, but can you elaborate (within your experience) as to the differences between Bühlmann and DSAT on the repetitive dives after some deco? Are there any marked differences?

 

[Diving Dubai]

That said for me as an instructor a huge thing is lockouts, and random penalties if the computer thinks I messed up.

Good post. Interesting also.

For the record, I set teh Eon to +1 (not quite the most conservitive) when teaching, for the reasons you pointed out. So far (touch wood) no issues, maybe 30secs added to the SS.

I can upset it, if I'm at the most agressive setting (-1) and on my Scooter in currents then I will get smacked by a 1-2min manditory extra at teh safetly stop because of ascent rate violations. No biggy and I hang longer anyway (and set the SS to 5 mins for extra piece of mind) So far no lock outs. I think I would need to try pretty hard to bend it in rec diving

 

[scubadada]

As I expected, but can you elaborate (within your experience) as to the differences between Bühlmann and DSAT on the repetitive dives after some deco? Are there any marked differences?

Depending on how I set the Nitek Q, they will often go into deco at about the same time, more often the Nitek Q 1st, particularly on deeper dives. On the deeper dives in the rec range I set the Nitek Q on a GF hi of 100. The deco times are very similar, the dive time on the next dive are also pretty similar. I have not made a formal attempt to record the times, i.e. on a slate.

 

[Father]

Regarding the original post, I don't know what currency you quoted but definitely not US $. The recommended price for Eon Core is 699 euros. Suunto EON Core Black dive computer with color screen and big numbers

The Eon Core is not primarily targeted to tek divers, so it is a bit funny to see so many references to tek computers in this thread. But of course, Eon Core can be used for tek diving as it has the same software than Eon Steel, with 10 gas mixes available -Tom / Suunto Test Diver

The price for the EON Core w/ AI is $1,439.90 on DRIS.

I would argue that, at least based on Suunto's site, that they're not "targeting" recreational or technical divers... but rather just divers.
The fact that it has the ability to switch gas mixes implies that technical divers are a target consumer base. What OWD/AOW diver even knows what to do with all those additional features?

Based on what I'm reading regarding algorithms, I would guess that they don't want to market their computers as specifically "tec" because they're aware that the algorithm isn't up to snuff for every aspect of tec diving like say the Shearwater computers?

 

[KenGordon]

why do you say the RGBM is more advanced when all of the decompression research says it is not a useful algorithm and puts you at higher risk of getting bent during technical dives? I would hardly say near the entire technical diving community, especially when backed by DAN and the rest of the decompression research is a "certain small group of divers".
Short list of important people, none of which had any involvement in creating Buhlmann, however I will say the sole reason that NAUI still uses RGBM is because Dr. Weinke is on the board of directors so he certainly favors his own creation.
Neal Pollock
@Dr Simon Mitchell
@Duke Dive Medicine
list is obviously much longer, but the first two are doing lots of active research right now and I have yet to see anyone except those from Suunto or NAUI advocate for RGBM.
Is it possible that you are guilty of your own accusation? Working for Suunto has skewed you into believing that the RGBM algorithm is superior to all others as that is the one chosen by Suunto for all of their computers?

RGBM is a bubble model, Buhlmann is a dissolved gas model, they are not based on the same principles....
Algorithms are very important when discussing computers, RGBM is not a smart algorithm to use on technical dives. Does it matter at recreational levels? Not really, but to say that RGBM is more advanced and to say that all of the leading researchers who are promoting ZHL are doing it because they favor their own creation is ludicrous when the guy who created it died 25 years ago

RTFM, in this case section 3.31. Suunto RGBM is actually a marketing term. It is a dissolved gas model based on Buhlmann, with modifications to the M-values based on dive history. It is not the same as RGBM the bubble model.

I think I have pointed this out before.

Point me at any data which shows a difference in bendiness of Suunto RGBM and ZHL-16. You are extrapolating from a comparison between two different navy models. You assume that a Suunto keeps you deep like VPM, ZHL-16 with low GF lo or the tested navy bubble model. But, as I have previously posted along with the generated plans, it doesn’t.

And for the benefit of others, I own the same number of Suunto an Shearwater computers - one of each is still on the drying shelf.