Taking GPS coordinates of a site... captain's permission?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I'm not a lawyer, don't pretend to be one, even though I watch Law and Order. So I'll leave it to you. You can be the
lawyer for either side and finally be the judge and make the final ruling.

Here is the scenerio:

I was recently on a dive boat. Prior to boarding the Captain made an announcement that since we would be
visiting a little known spot with a real wreck (as opposed to a sanitized artificial one), operating a GPS device would
not be permitted. Any GPS devices found on board would be tossed overboard. Several people turned off their smart phones
and gave them to the captain who secured them in a locked case. As I planned to capture the GPS numbers, I had mine
left on and concealed it in my dry bag. Frankly, I thought the Captain was bluffing.

After coming up from my second dive, The boat began heading back and that is when I noticed my GPS is gone! I
confronted the Captain, who very matter-of-factly denied any knowledge of what may have happened to the device.
I reminded him of this statements prior to boarding about tossing and operating devices overboard. He once again denied
having anything to do with the disappearance of the device.

None of the other passengers admitted to seeing the Captain touch my stuff. After we docked, I called the Police.
I knew this was not a high priority from them, but after 30 minutes, a LEO showed up. He greeted the Captain by name
with a friendly handshake. It was apparent they were acquaintances.

After telling my story, the LEO stated without witnesses, or an admission from the Captain, there was nothing
he could do.

So... What Are My Options? What do you suppose is going to happen?

I will take a crack at it. First, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for someone who willfully disobeys a request by the captain. I would not do so out of common courtesy and my desire to have a long term relationship with a good boat. I understand the captain would be pissed off, but he could have just erased the coordinates.

I would demand the LEO take a police report. Its not their decision to refuse to document a complaint. It won't go anywhere legally with no witnesses but it will be on record for other actions later.

I would also demand in writing payment for said equipment from the captain.

Next I would ask the credit card company to charge back the boat fee.

Lastly I would post the story on SB and other forums. Having the captain / crew rifle though your gear while submerged will irritate other potential customers because the probably went through the gear of every other diver on the boat. Some good customers are going to get pissed. You might find that this is not the first time this has happened. If others come forward with similar stories on the same boat, then you can the potential to have a good small claims court action.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Bottom line, my numbers remain secure, and the party attempting to steal them, got what was promised.

Your approach of doing whatever you like while assuming that others will limit themselves to legal solutions alone should work fine, so long as (1) you're smart enough not to get caught and (2) you don't try those games on someone who also thinks the rules don't apply to them and decides to you back. Best of luck to you as to both elements, you seem like you'll need it.

 

[ScubaSteve]

You may be coming in late in this one. I am the Captain. I wrote that scenerio from the point-of-view of the person who was trying to steal numbers.

So you are saying you rifle through your customer's belongings while they are diving? Nice! And what was the name of your operation? I simply have to put all my mouse traps to good use on your boat.

 

[manni-yunk]

I will take a crack at it. First, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for someone who willfully disobeys a request by the captain. I would not do so out of common courtesy and my desire to have a long term relationship with a good boat. I understand the captain would be pissed off, but he could have just erased the coordinates.

I would demand the LEO take a police report. Its not their decision to refuse to document a complaint. It won't go anywhere legally with no witnesses but it will be on record for other actions later.

I would also demand in writing payment for said equipment from the captain.

Next I would ask the credit card company to charge back the boat fee.

Lastly I would post the story on SB and other forums. Having the captain / crew rifle though your gear while submerged will irritate other potential customers because the probably went through the gear of every other diver on the boat. Some good customers are going to get pissed. You might find that this is not the first time this has happened. If others come forward with similar stories on the same boat, then you can the potential to have a good small claims court action.

Im not sure, depending on how far out the boat went - that the police had any jurisdiction to do anything whatsoever. Maritime law is vastly different than ours on land.......

 

[adutto]

I'd to get a bit back on track on the original issue... (Although I'd like to post my thoughts about this guy's ethics, but I'll leave that to your imagination)

Here in Argentina (yes, 3rd world country), the navy in the case of Sea Wrecks and Firemen in the case of Submerged Structures in a dam or quarry, have every coordinate and information regarding these "seamarks".
If they are not of strategic importance (military speaking) they will gladly give you the information, reminding you that security is up to you.

I don't see why you couldn't do the same in the US! I bet the navy has info en EVERY single wreck in the coast, maybe someone in the forum knows how to get that info.

One last thought: This activity is all about having a good time, making friends, getting to know new places and doing physical activity... I'd go 100 times to the same wreck with a cool, friendly operation, other than "exploring a secret site" with people the makes me hand out my phone on the boat like I was in prison. (Although I believe the market alone will put everything on its place)

My 0.02

 

[manni-yunk]

I'd to get a bit back on track on the original issue... (Although I'd like to post my thoughts about this guy's ethics, but I'll leave that to your imagination)
I don't see why you couldn't do the same in the US! I bet the navy has info en EVERY single wreck in the coast, maybe someone in the forum knows how to get that info.

My 0.02

I keep going back to the same word...ignorance.


There are over 4000 wrecks off the cost of NJ alone....that have NEVER been found. Read some of the Atlantic wreck books and you will see that even the military "lost" some of their OWN wrecks locations....for YEARS. Subs, ships, etc. Some of the pioneers of Atlantic Wreck diving worked intimately with the military while trying to find them. There are still hundreds and thousands of wrecks off the East Coast of the US that NO ON knows where they are. Some are only visible certain years - other times the sand and silt moves (storms) and they are visible again.


Assuming that the military is "all knowing" is blind faith.


The other issue is that even the "unknown marks" that the government has tracked and plotted - have data from 10, 20, sometimes as many as 40 years ago. These structures move....sometimes significantly - over time due to storms.

 

[adutto]

I keep going back to the same word...ignorance.


There are over 4000 wrecks off the cost of NJ alone....that have NEVER been found. Read some of the Atlantic wreck books and you will see that even the military "lost" some of their OWN wrecks locations....for YEARS. Subs, ships, etc. Some of the pioneers of Atlantic Wreck diving worked intimately with the military while trying to find them. There are still hundreds and thousands of wrecks off the East Coast of the US that NO ON knows where they are. Some are only visible certain years - other times the sand and silt moves (storms) and they are visible again.


Assuming that the military is "all knowing" is blind faith.


The other issue is that even the "unknown marks" that the government has tracked and plotted - have data from 10, 20, sometimes as many as 40 years ago. These structures move....sometimes significantly - over time due to storms.

Dude, I'm not saying they are ALL MIGHTY... Just that they can be a good source of information. If you didin't notice, english is not my native language, so sorry by the "all", just replace it with "most" or even "several", whatever fits you better.

(Btw, calling someone ignorant => not polite)

 

[vondo]

Dude, I'm not saying they are ALL MIGHTY... Just that they can be a good source of information. If you didin't notice, english is not my native language, so sorry by the "all", just replace it with "most" or even "several", whatever fits you better.

(Btw, calling someone ignorant => not polite)

Not necessarily. Ignorance means you don't know something or understand something. It doesn't mean "stupid" or "idiot". I certainly am ignorant of NE Atlantic wreck diving.

 

[ScubaSteve]

(Btw, calling someone ignorant => not polite)

Just to be clear.....He was not necessarily calling you a name.....but then it is interchangeable so only he can know for sure.

ig·no·rance

[ig-ner-uh ns] Show IPA
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

 

[manni-yunk]

Dude, I'm not saying they are ALL MIGHTY... Just that they can be a good source of information.

(Btw, calling someone ignorant => not polite)

Ignorant is not rude at all. Its an adjective that I think is perfectly suited for many of the replies in this thread. People assume to much. TO many people think that all these numbers are known.....either by captains or the military.....and that just isnt true - but....People with no training or knowledge feel comfortable posting with information to the contrary.


I would say that the definition fits PERFECTLY.
ig·no·rant

/ˈɪg nər ənt/ Show Spelled [ig-ner-uh nt] Show IPA
adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.

2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.

3. uninformed; unaware.

4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.



When you go out on a charter - and the captain gets to the wreck and drops anchor immediately - - - -what you dont see is the YEARS of practice, searching, looking. Years of getting to a set of numbers and seeing NOTHING on the sounder. Dropping diver and diver in the water to search for some sign of a wreck. Then running search grids for hours, days, weeks - looking for the slightest blip on the screen. Years of renting expensive side scanning sonar - all to find a small incling of a wreck.......


You guys seem to think that these guys just look up a set of numbers on a chart.....then run you there. That just isnt the case.

Sure - reefs, and artificial wrecks - that is exactly what happens. But for the die hard wreck diving crowd.........It is completely different.

---------- Post added January 15th, 2013 at 09:52 AM ----------

Looks like others posted the definition at the same time.....LOL