Thank heavens for PADI

[MikeFerrara]

So far all I've heard are general alligations of greed and poor training. Get specific with specific alternatives.

reefraff is probably right about it being a troll but if you've only heard (read) general alligations then you haven't been paying attention because I've written many pages of specific complaints about PADI standards and even provided quotes from the instructor manual at times.

Maybe you would like to pick a specific class or topic to go after to shorten things up a little.

 

[Dave_1985]

Ive got no complaints about padi as an organisation, but im a padi diver, and my opinion is biased. They get my cards to me on time, theyve got realistic requirements to do courses, and maybe i find it easier to pay for my courses on holiday. For me padi is the best Diving organisation. Ive only been on one, non padi trip, and that was to the red sea, with a ssi instructor, and, the trainining my friends doing open water got was no better or worse than padi's training.

 

[VTernovski]

1) life-time certification with no obligation for renewal, especially for instructors.
2) drysuit certification is a joke. they teach incorrect methods. any kind of drills that require you do be on your knees is a joke. Nitrox (or Rescue for that matter) class doesn't teach rescuing a toxing diver. this is just to name a few...
3) I won't go into that.. those who know, know. I don;t want to start a pissing contest here.

 

[fgray1]

Everbody get out of here!!!!!!!!!!

THERE"S A TROLL ON THE LOOSE :11:

Fred

 

[Lawman]

1) life-time certification with no obligation for renewal, especially for instructors.
2) drysuit certification is a joke. they teach incorrect methods. any kind of drills that require you do be on your knees is a joke. Nitrox (or Rescue for that matter) class doesn't teach rescuing a toxing diver. this is just to name a few...
3) I won't go into that.. those who know, know. I don;t want to start a pissing contest here.

Do other agencies require re-certification? Which ones?
What "incorrect methods" do they teach? What are the correct ones? Has anyone been injured because of these methods? I took SSI nitrox. We didn't learn how to rescue a toxing diver either. How do you do it?

 

[MikeFerrara]

WOW, even I hvae a few problems with this stuff. LOL

1) life-time certification with no obligation for renewal, especially for instructors.

Instructors have to renew their membership every year. Their skills are never checked again though and that's too bad.

As far as diver certifications though, once I've completed and paid for my training I want the agency out of my shorts. There's only one agency that I know of that requires student level certs to be renewed and that's one of the few things that I disagree with them on.

2) drysuit certification is a joke. they teach incorrect methods.

Well that depends. Diving with a functioning bc or wing I'd agree that the suit is best NOT used for buoyancy control. However, lots of guys like the some members of the CDG dive sidemount and don't use a wing aty all and the suit is the only source of buoyancy control that they have. It seems to work for them and the CDG is probably the oldest technical diving organization that there is.

any kind of drills that require you do be on your knees is a joke.

Be correct now. While PADI allows skills to be done while kneeling they don't require it.

Nitrox (or Rescue for that matter) class doesn't teach rescuing a toxing diver.

The PADI nitrox text does talk a little about it but it isn't required that students practice it. The method that's taught by the only agency I know of that teaches has only been tried once as far as I know. It might work a second time and it might not. One things for certain though and that is that checking every ones gas before a dive would have made it a moot point because the whole thing wouldn't have happened.

 

[scubadiverjunkie]

Nicely put Lawman !!

 

[ChrisJones]

In the open water class you can miss every question about dive planning on the final exam and pass. The third unit is very dense with a only single page of first aid and rescue info, while the fifth unit is very sparse with lots of marketing info, and even four marketing questions on the knowledge review.

Chris

 

[Diver0001]

OK, I've listened to the complaints about PADI but they all seem rather vague. Let's get specific.

1. What specific complaints do you have about PADI as an organization?
2. What specific parts of PADI training don't you agree with?
3. What exactly do other mainstream training organizations teach that is in conflict with specific elements of PADI training?

So far all I've heard are general alligations of greed and poor training. Get specific with specific alternatives.

Well......troll or not......

(on point 1) Their QA looks good on paper but they don't catch enough of the bad guys. For example. An instructor in the Canary Islands certified a buddy of mine for AOW without doing any of the dives with him. He had seen my friend diving from a charter the previous week and just said "you're good enough already". Other examples can be seen all over the place. A friend told me at lunch today about an "intro" dive she had in Egypt. 2 hours in the pool followed by dive to 25 metres. Large group, 1 instructor, no buddy teams. Not surprisingly someone went missing (thankfully he was ok). Another friend of mine was taken to 36 metres during an intro dive in Cuba. Another was certified in Curacao as Dive master without doing the mapping project. and so on and so on. There are too many examples to remember them all and I don't have all night to write them down. And I'm only one person. Just imagine the number of standards violations that must be occurring if you take this into account. In short. If QA was working I think a very large number of instructors active today would need straightening out. Maybe that's part of the problem. The organisation is so large and standards violations are so common (in absolute numbers) that their QA system amounts to pissing on a forest-fire. So my biggest complaint about the organisation would be that their QA is disfunctional. I also think that much of the bad press PADI is getting is related to the failure of their QA. I think this because I believe their standards are basically good and their materials are all good or excellent..... If instructors would just follow the standards ........

(on point 2) Too much wiggle-room for bad instructors. In the general standards it mentions that students should display (to pick one example) some kind of control over their bouyancy but judging how good is good enough is left to the instructor. As a result I've seen students with zero buoyancy control get certified because some instructors either don't know what to expect or don't give a rat's patoot. I've heard instructors say things like "it's ok, he'll sort it out".....and guess what......they are invariably the ones who produce crappy students. My problem with this situation is that it's technically not a standards violation to certify someone with piss poor buoyancy control and the same applies to a number of other points in the general standards. A good instructor will use the standards as a framework to make sure his student gets proper training and a bad instructor will use the vagueness in the standards as an excuse to move on with the job 1/2 done.

(on point 3) I think all of the organisations in the WRSTC are marching to the same drummer. CMAS isn't and they have some interesting improvements to offer, I think. But having said that, from what I've seen around me in the Netherlands, CMAS divers don't tend to be any more skillful than PADI divers and the CMAS variant in Belguim has, for some strange reason, a really poor safety record. So even in the CMAS it's still all about the instructor.

R..

 

[jhelmuth]

MikeF,

Come one Mike, be reasonable. I would venture to say that 99.9% of the people out there who decide that scuba diving looks interesting and want to try it out are not going to even know where to start to decide if a company or instructor is a good one or not.

You are right.

I know you would like to change the fundamentals of how training is done, and I believe that is a worthwhile and noble endeavor although a bit more daunting than climbing Mt. Everest or walking to the moon.

I disagree with good reason and second-hand knowledge (my wife was certified in 1972 - NAUI OW). In the early 70's (before PADI was in the majority), diving instruction was not as easy to pass. Standards were tougher. PADI changed that in their quest to become the dominant agency - by dumbing it down so more could aquire the OW card more quickly. Unfortunately, others followed (not all). That business decission(s) has lead to the problems we see today: too many divers with inadequate training which multiplies the damage to the eco-systems and alarming rates of diving accidents and fatalities (check out the number from DAN or whatever source you trust).
If you want to really change it, it can be done. But it will take the vast majority of the diving community to really want that more than anything. If that is so, then it is not as hard as climbing Everest, or going to the moon.
Unfortunately, I don't think the community really does want it that bad.

The thought process of the average Joe is much different than someone who has years of experience in a subject though. The person that walks into a dive shop and wants to get trained is going to shop at 1 or 2 shops and make the selection based on how they click with the person behind the counter. That person may not even be a diver!

Yes - again you are right... but for the wrong reason. While they may go into 1-2 shops, there are plenty to go into. If all shops were better staffed by real pros that required more than a PADI 3-months-till-I-become-a-DI instructor, then there would be no issue. But it doesn't work that way in the real world. One of the better known LDS in my area is a top PADI shop and I know of their lax requirements, churning out more divers at cut-rate prices so they can sell 'em their gear. That's their business model.

Once they decide to dive with a shop (they aren't going to care if its NAUI or PADI or anyone else) they are going to do thier dives and training and become certified.

Some will get the bright shiney card and look up at the board and say "Hey what is that AOW course all about?" and like one LDS shop told me, some person behind a counter will say "Its some additional training and a way to get a few more dives in under the watchful eye of an instructor." That is exactly how it was sold to my wife.

And the person who has just qualified OW will be taking an AOW course because the person behind the counter just talked them into it.

You and I agree more than you may realize.

Somewhere in all of this, several (many, maybe even a majority) posters on this board wish that the students would slow down and do some research...but it just isn't going to happen. In the excitment of it all (and scuba diving is VERY exciting if you remember your early dives and even or last one) the student is going along with whatever the diving instructor tells them. Its the nature of the inexperienced in just about anything...they will listen to someone who "appears" to know more than them and believe that they are looking out for the less experienced person. Now we know that is not always true...

We keep getting closer, and closer to the point.

Well, enough of my ramblings...lets try to remember that those of you with a wealth of experience on this board are educating those of us without it. Be smart about the way you present your advice and you will find the ignorant become the educated because of you.

This is really worthy of all to consider. It's too bad that we all can't "reach out" to themany thousands who do not know any better.

In truth, it may be the results of the PADI methods and corporate decissions which have greatly influenced the diving world today in that it is composed of so many that have been "run through the system" and have their coveted certification. But the real problems are in the instructors out there. They are the purveyors of this. It's their signatures, time, knowledge, and ignorance in some cases, which are bestoed to the ever growing masses of new divers. If the system is to change, it will be due to their changes. It can and does work if the instructor cares - but not all do. Fix that, and the problem is almost licked. The next thing to attack is how easily instructors are also "churned out of the mill." Once that comes to a halt, then we are likely to see less instructors (eventually) earning higher fees (due to the demand finding equilibrium) and hopefully that will translate into better quality instruction (as the means to compete).

Then again - maybe not.