Thank heavens for PADI

[heymonkey]

This has (almost) all been good reading, but c'mon.... Honestly, I think you can say whatever you want about agencies and standards, but it all really comes down to a few things. There are good and bad instructors/DMs in any agency. You pass - or not - by their decision. You can choose an instructor who will hand you a tank and throw you in, or you can look for the guy/gal who really loves to teach technique. I was initially concerned about my buoyancy and practiced it in the pool between OW class sessions.

After certification, you are responsible for yourself including whether or not you learn and grow. There are no (official) SCUBA police and anyone is largely free to take risks and break rules - and there will always be those who do. I've had some moments of temptation myself. Heck, I've broken some rules. Diving is a calculated risk no matter how you look at it.

Good for you if your skills are top notch and you love to show off. I'm just in it for the fun, adventure, and diving (and living). I can't fault PADI for making diving accessible and promoting the sport even though I don't agree with all of their policies and practices. I feel that way about almost any organization with more than 50 members. Thank god we all have the fortune to go out and risk our lives diving! (or hiking, climbing, paddling, etc.) If I happen to die diving, I'd appreciate being faulted for it rather than the certifying agency, or worse, the exceptional instructor/mentor who spent x number of hours passing on knowledge and techniques... and even let me make some mistakes along the way... imagine!

 

[gj62]

Excet that when you are teaching diving you are responsible for avoiding and responding to problems at depth. An instructor who isn't a deep diver may not be able to do that on a deep dive. Being a good diver doesn't make you a good teacher but being a poor diver can make you a dangerous teacher.

the student accident at Gilboa that I mentioned in an earlier post happened when the student lost a fin on a planned 80 ft dive in 120 ft of water (no bottom under them). The student lost a fin and sank deeper, paniced and bolted. Better skills on the part of the student, instructor or both could have easily controled the situation.

On Rachel's (buiskit7) deep dive she experienced a free flow. In the process of putting her on some ones alternate her, her buddy and the instructor shot to the surface at like 160 ft per minute according to her computer. They weren't trying to ascend at all BTW and didn't know they were until almost at the surface. Manageing a free flow should not send a student to the surface and certainly is a common problem for an instructor to have to assist with in cold water on a deep dive.

Do you have direct knowledge about the instructor in these cases - their skills, diving history, overall ability, etc? I'd like to say that experienced people never make these types of mistakes, but that would be completely erroneous. If you do have that knowledge, then I agree that it points to that being a factor. If you don't, then you can't use these to make your point, other than to say, "Look, accidents happen, be prepared". On the same hand, I'm not making the arguement to the tune of, "If there are X thousand PADI instructors certifying, Y thousands of students, if the training were that bad, then DAN would have a much longer annual incident report..."

 

[MikeFerrara]

Do you have direct knowledge about the instructor in these cases - their skills, diving history, overall ability, etc? I'd like to say that experienced people never make these types of mistakes, but that would be completely erroneous. If you do have that knowledge, then I agree that it points to that being a factor. "

No, I don't have first hand knowledge of the skill level of these instructors. I'm just matching what happened to what I've seen and drawing a conclusion. I will say though that we see incedents like this very often though they don't always result in injury. I'll also say that if I thought there was any kind of real chance of such a thing happening because of a lost fin or a free flow either because of the students skill level or my own we're going to work on it at 20 ft or in a pool before doing any deep dives.

A quick story...

I was teaching an Advanced Nitrox class in the deep end at Gilboa. My student, DM and myself were slowly ascending to our 70 ft stop where my student was to switch gasses and deploy a lift bag. We were in sight of a series of down lines some refer to as the trpeze when I see a comotion on the bottom and a huge bellow of silt rise up. It looked like some one was in trouble so we descended a bit so I could see better.

Then I see two divers who looked like they were in some kind of wrestling match come climbing hand over hand up the line. They both looked scared to death, very awkward and in general not in ver good shape. They didn't seem in any immediate danger though so I just watched. When they got a little closer I saw that one of the divers was holding a mesh bag with some items in it. It wasn't until I could make out what the items were that I realized what I was watching.

Have you guessed yet what it was? I was watching a deep diver specialty class. One of them was an instructor though I couldn't tell which and, IMO, neither one had any business there.

During the same Advanced Nitrox class we had a bunch of divers rain down on us. There wasn't a buddy pair in the bunch and they all stopped at different depths and swam off head up, neg buoyant and kicking (and breathing) hard to keep from sinking more. They swam off the group still scattered bicycle kicking and I didn't see a single diver really get neutral.

Do you know what that was? It was a AOW deep dive.

I guess, I've seen enough. If the system is sound we just wouldn't see this stuff so often.

 

[gj62]

I guess, I've seen enough. If the system is sound we just wouldn't see this stuff so often.

Might be a geographical phenomenon... or maybe burn-out? I travel alot (and this is where I do my diving) and see people learning, practicing new skills, and yes, making mistakes. However, I also see alot of people enjoying a great sport. I've never been to Gilboa - is there a concetration of questionable shops using poor instructors in the vicinity?

 

[Dan Gibson]

I don't think it's regional. We have some of the worst divers, but we also have many divers around this area that would put people in areas where diving is a daily thing to shame. The only thing special about Gilboa is the number of people that go there and the harsh conditions you can encounter there if you are not prepared.

Might be a geographical phenomenon... or maybe burn-out? I travel alot (and this is where I do my diving) and see people learning, practicing new skills, and yes, making mistakes. However, I also see alot of people enjoying a great sport. I've never been to Gilboa - is there a concetration of questionable shops using poor instructors in the vicinity?

 

[gj62]

I don't think it's regional. We have some of the worst divers, but we also have many divers around this area that would put people in areas where diving is a daily thing to shame. The only thing special about Gilboa is the number of people that go there and the harsh conditions you can encounter there if you are not prepared.

That's a good point - certainly the environment you learn in can be a plus/minus when you travel. A person training in tropical waters with a shorty, 4 lbs on their hips, 80' of viz and no current is probably not ready for the cold temp, high current diving that can be found in the PNW without someone to help them the first couple of times through.

Is Gilboa a common place for checkout dives, if it is such a harsh environment? I used to cert people out of Monterey, CA - there are some secluded cove dives that are great for beginners (though never much more than 20' viz), and then there's Monastery - just a few miles south. Rough beach entry, heavy surge and a canyon as deep as you go within swimming distance - certainly not where I'd take my OW class. Reminds me of that car commercial where 4 guys are in an SUV (forget the brand), tooling around looking for a big rock to climb. They get to where they're headed, get out and look at this daunting mntn - and all decide the can climb the small one across the way.

 

[rab]

Is Gilboa a common place for checkout dives, if it is such a harsh environment?

Well, being someone who did both OW and AOW checkout dives at Gilboa Quarry, I can field this one.

The quarry is divided sort of in half. There is a "shallow" side that goes from 15-70' (well, 0-70' if you use the shore entry) and a deep side that goes to 120+'.

There are platforms on which students can perform their required skills at about 20', but the bottom is very silty and can quite easily cause visibility to drop when stirred up.

The shallow side has some "wrecks" including an airplane and a bus where penetration dives can be practiced in about 30-35'. There are also some large tubes that are arranged as a swim-through at about 60-65'.

The deep side gets dark and cold as any 120', zero-current site (never been there, but visit the web site!).

If you want "harsh" conditions, you can find or make them, but certification dives can be as easy as anywhere, too.

-Rob

 

[Dan Gibson]

Unfortunately, too many divers tend to make/find these before they are ready and/or prepared.

If you want "harsh" conditions, you can find or make them, but certification dives can be as easy as anywhere, too.

-Rob

 

[gj62]

Warning - leading questions (and general rambling) ahead...

There are platforms on which students can perform their required skills at about 20', but the bottom is very silty and can quite easily cause visibility to drop when stirred up.

Um, what are the platforms for, students? If there are platforms, are they full of silt to begin with? If not, why would using them create silt? If so, why do you have platforms?

The shallow side has some "wrecks" including an airplane and a bus where penetration dives can be practiced in about 30-35'. There are also some large tubes that are arranged as a swim-through at about 60-65'.

That's cool, really! Sounds like the snowboard parks we built around here. Great for practice, I guess, if that's your thing.

The deep side gets dark and cold as any 120', zero-current site (never been there, but visit the web site!).

Zero-current - must be nice. I suppose no wave surge either? Finning is at a premium, of course...

If you want "harsh" conditions, you can find or make them, but certification dives can be as easy as anywhere, too.

If you can "make" them, then I'd say you don't have to find them. Not arguing with you, but you are describing conditions that *most* warm-water vacationing rec divers never find themselves facing...

I've heard, and I certainly am not saying it is true, that CO has one of the highest rates of certified divers to the normal population. I don't know of any regularly used site within CO that is used for certs - most go out-of-state. I guess that means that most folks here are either going to places like Gilboa or someplace warm for their pleasure diving.

Different conditions, different *required* skills. Maybe the cert classes ought to take that into consideration?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Might be a geographical phenomenon... or maybe burn-out? I travel alot (and this is where I do my diving) and see people learning, practicing new skills, and yes, making mistakes. However, I also see alot of people enjoying a great sport. I've never been to Gilboa - is there a concetration of questionable shops using poor instructors in the vicinity?

I don't think it's regional. Some of the most unbelievable things I've seen have been at places like Vortex springs in Florida.

I will say that we have some big shops (cert mills) that use these sites so I think we get some of the worst.

There used to be a guy on the board who used to argue with me all the time about the same stuff you are. He claimed he didn't see things as being so bad.

He spent a weekend at Gilboa and he was convinced. LOL