The Difference Between LP and HP

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Michael Thomas

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Location
NY
# of dives
50 - 99
I am looking at tanks. Some tanks say LP Low Pressure...others say HP High Pressure.
What's the difference and is here a benefit to either one?
Thanks
:wink:
 
If there were no benefit to either one, there would not be both of them.:D

When you see the capacity of a tank, that means it reaches that capacity when it is filled to its rated pressure. A LP 85 cubic feet cylinder will reach its capacity of 85 cubic feet when it is filled to its rated pressure, usually of 2400 PSI + 10%, or 2640 PSI. A typical HP tank will be filled to its specified capacity when it reaches about 3500 PSI. Look at this chart to see some examples. If you think that through for a minute, it means that in a high pressure tank, you are jamming a lot more air molecules into less space to get that same amount of air in the LP tank. That means a high pressure tank is usually a bit smaller and lighter. That is an advantage in some dives, especially when carrying the tanks to and from the dive site. It is a disadvantage in other dives when you would prefer to have heavier tanks.

A disadvantage of the high pressure tanks is that some people filling tanks have a hard time getting up to that much pressure, and you may end up with chronically underfilled tanks.

This is very controversial, but an advantage of of the LP tanks is that if you are willing to do it, some places will overfill the LP tanks. If you have an LP 85 tank filled to 3000 PSI, you have about 100 cubic feet of air. Believe it or not, if you go to cave country, many shops will overfill LP tanks to a very serious extent. A tank that is supposed to give you its capacity at 2640 PSI will give you rughly 40% more air if it is filled to 3800 PSI. In contrast, very few shops will overfill a HP cylinder.
 
So basically there is no such thing as a HP 85?
And there is no such thing as a LP 100?
 
There are hp80's
look at Scuba Cylinder Specification Chart from Huron Scuba, Ann Arbor Michigan

you will see many tanks the same size ie 80 cuft but at different pressure 2640 3000 3300 3500 psi.
some one correct me but I think the lp to hp barrier is at 3100 or something like that. the al80 is a lp tank.

the hp tanks are smaller for the same cu ft rating. and as result less drag. many like the hp tanks like the hp 100

with that tank 100 at 3500 will give you 85 at 3000 psi which is still more than an al 80 at 3000 which is actually 77 cu ft.

a steel lp85 at 2640 will give you 96 at 3000 psi and 77 again at 2400 psi so same as a al 80 again.

al tanks need additional scrutiny when it comes to vis inspection in some regards. steel tanks last for ever as long as they don't rust

there are a wide range of buoyancy qualities amongst tanks or even with in the al80 group, the s80 or standard 80 or the smaller c80 compressed 80 which is smaller in empty cu ft measurement, but is heavier because of thicker walls and being filled to say 3300 instead of 3000 like the al s80.

So what tank is right for you. well how much air do you need, what fill stations do you have at your service, salt or fresh water diving, dry suit or no suit, buoyancy of =4 TO -4 OR -3 TO -12, empty to full. no one but you can say what is right for you.

Regards
 
Michael:

I remembered an old thread from last year where forum member MMM started a discussion that may be a real world practical example of interest to you - Steel tank ops - a comparison between Living Underwater and Aldora. Note he had more gas at the end of Aldora dives, though; be mindful your experience may vary.

These are 2 highly reputable dive op.s in the very popular dive destination Cozumel. Living Underwater is a small, one boat op. I believe (I dove with them on a cruise stop and had a fine experience; would like to use them again), whereas Aldora is a larger, multi-boat op. In a nutshell, both offer 120 cf tanks, one LP & the other HP, and MMM had the chance to dive & compare both tank types.

Richard.
 
so I disagree with the way John worded his statement, but that's the way most people think of it.

There are things called tank factors, and that is the ratio of psi to cubic feet. Basic article here
Precision Diving

Many tanks have similar tank factors whether they are lp or hp and in Europe they do away with it because they quote tank volume in liters say 10, and then at whatever pressure you are at in bar, say 200, you then have 200*10 total liters in the tank. Quite brilliant and the imperial system is dumb, especially when it comes to this.

Modern LP tanks, all of the 2400+ ones are regularly filled to 3600psi and have been for 30+ years and will continue to be for the rest of time, they do very well and have the convenience of being relatively cheaper when new and you don't have to deal with pesky exemptions from the DoT for hydrostatic testing. You can see threads about the recent PST debacle where people were concerned all of their HP and E series tanks were going to be condemned because the renewal wasn't processed. With Worthington and PST both out of the game for bottles, it will be a concern periodically, though it will 99.9% likely be resolved every time.

So, don't think about cubic footage if you have access to a shop that will pump your LP tanks up to higher pressure because a LP85 becomes almost a HP120 at 116cf, so they are nominally the same tank. Same as a LP95 becomes a HP130.

Buy tanks used, they depreciate like cars compared to their new price, and your best bet is to find a tank that fits what you need out of it and ignore what the working pressure is as long as the air volume is close.

I.e. for me I own and use the following tanks
HP120's, primary sidemount bottles and use as independent doubles for longer wreck dives. I am rather tall with a long back so the longer bottles work better for me and the HP120 offers one of the best cf/lb ratios in the tank sector. LP85's are next but have a little less volume.
LP72's in doubles, primary teaching set, nifty little tanks that are super cheap and are practically perfect in every way, except the pesky 2250+ working pressure and inability to really pump them over 2800/2900psi reliably. If you are doing single tank recreational diving with people in AL80's, this is the best alternative
LP45's, nice little light bottles for shallow cave diving about 63f/bottle at 3600 which is perfect for mental math on thirds
LP104's, in doubles, only use when I need a sh!tton of gas for deep/long dives to free up extra space for stages. Awesome doubles bottles, but god are they heavy.

I prefer PST to the other brands due to hot dip galvanizing for ocean diving and general abuse, but would choose Faber over Worthington due to superior build quality, but that is splitting hairs really. There are 2 main things you need to look at in a bottle before purchasing, especially for backmount. Length, everyone has an ideal cylinder length; this is determined by sitting on a flat surface and measuring from the surface to where your spine goes forward a little bit and subtract about 2 inches. You have a bit of wiggle room on either side to accommodate personal preference or the ideal number for part 2.

Part 2 is buoyancy when empty. All steel tanks are better than aluminum tanks for diving because you get a lighter tank for comparable volume, and because they don't float, you also have to carry less lead. An LP72 at 2700psi holds the same amount of gas as an AL80 at 3000psi, but is a little more than 5lbs lighter on the surface, and a little less than 5lbs more negative when empty, so you are carrying around 10 less pounds of gear for the same amount of gas and you are still neutral in the water, that's a win win. The LP72's are neutral when empty, similar to the LP85's from Faber which is why they are so popular as sidemount bottles for wetsuit diving. In contrast, most of the PST and other Faber bottles are between 1 and 1.5lbs negative when empty, so if you are diving thicker wetsuits, it is more lead that you are able to take off. Certain PST bottles, mainly the LP104 and HP80 are almost 3.5lbs negative when empty so they are great for people with a lot of bioprene or in thick undergarments in a drysuit. Many of the Worthington bottles are similarly negative and are about 1lb more negative than their PST equivalents. Faber made a medium pressure series which was 3180+ for working pressure, and these are very negative in the 7-8lbs range so they are good for those divers in the PNW or other cold regions that need a lot of lead on their belt. They are rather difficult to find, though I did see a set of MP72's on craigslist the other day.

Now, to circle back to the original question on what is better you have to first find the actual tank that you want and think will be best for you, and then you'll find there are a few options in that range. You're in New York, that means you'll most likely be in the salty stuff, so I would lean to PST or Worthington over their Faber cousins just due to rusting, the hot dip zinc is a bit more durable especially if your tanks aren't in boots, the bottom of the Fabers tend to wear through their painted zinc coating quite a bit faster. I also don't like their trim profiles when empty but again, that is all personal preference.
You also have to look at nominal capacity. This is a relatively important factor and unfortunately is dependent on your dive shop and what pressure they are willing to fill to. Consider your dive plans present and future, and try to approximate your gas requirements. I know I can do two dives on a single HP120, while most people will use two AL80's, IF I get a good fill, if they short change me, then the extra gas is wasted. Conversely, on a LP104, I can get two dives off of it where buddies are diving al80's even if I don't get a great fill, 3000lbs gives me 120cf of gas which is plenty. If I knew I would only get fills to working pressure, then I would likely lean to the HP tanks and go a bit over what I would expect I need, say an E8-130, and if they short change me by a little bit I won't be concerned. An E8-130 nets 120cf of gas at 3200psi, so I know as long as the fill is over 3200 I'm doing OK and everything else is bonus. Where I dive, I know I can always get HP/E series bottles filled to their working pressure, generally a bit over *3600psi is a nice number for gas planning*, and I also know they will fill my LP bottles to 3600. I know that I work best with 1.5lb nominal tanks because it allows me to use no lead in a drysuit with a pair of them, so at that point I would just find whatever I could get a good deal on in the 85+cf range for LP or the 120+ range for HP/E.


Sorry if that is a bit long winded, but it's a pretty interesting subject to think about, but the real important one is finding a tank that you're comfortable with on your back and gives you the most advantages in your diving.
 
Michael Thomas, it's important to read some of the comments with an awareness of regional differences. Dive shops in or near Florida cave country, and some dive shops elsewhere that cater to technical divers, may be willing to overfill cylinders, but apart from those places, almost all shops will fill to rated pressure. So, unless you are diving in cave country, buying a low pressure tank and expecting to use it as having a much greater gas content than the published volume is not going to work out for you very well.

The bottom line is that cylinders come in a bewildering spectrum of sizes, and have varying rated pressures. For the same, or close to the same rated volume, an LP cylinder will be larger and heavier on land than an HP cylinder. It will also be cheaper.
 
Why do you complicate things so much?! Different sizes, different pressures and then use a LP/HP terminology that means...
some one correct me but I think the lp to hp barrier is at 3100 or something like that
...well, something...

And on this side of the pond, high pressure is 4350 psi!

How do shops cope with so varied service pressures?

How do you overfill? I thought you were required to have burst disks over there? And even if you don't, it doesn't seem like a good practice, it will increase the fatigue of the metal much faster, especially if aluminium. But on the other hand, I don't hear many cases of tanks blowing up...
 
Redshift, it is rather complicated here, common service pressures here are as follows
2250+ are the LP72's and a handful of others, very old
2400+ are the "normal" LP tanks
3000 are normal AL tanks
3180+ Faber and Heiser medium pressure
3300 are the higher pressure AL tanks, 100's, and a few compact series from Catalina
3442 HP exempt tanks which are the "HP" tanks that use normal valves
3500 true HP tanks that require the skinny neck valves and were made by PST/Asahi up until just over 10 years ago

2250, 3180, and 3500 bottles aren't made any more which helps, but it's still a disaster trying to keep up.

I do wish we had true 300bar bottles here, but that is likely to never happen

Most technical shops will have a third stage for all steels set at 3600psi, and they will either have a second one set to 3000 for AL bottles, or they will manually cut it off early, not uncommon to see 3300 woops aluminum fills. Most regular shops will fill one or two bottles at a time and adjust the third stage for whatever bottle is being filled.

We do have burst discs, but it is very common to either plug them or to put burst discs rated somewhere around their hydro pressures. Aluminum tanks are rarely overfilled and if they are it is to maybe 3300 if someone screwed up, doesn't happen often, and their hydro pressure is 5000psi so while it may accelerate hardening of the aluminum, having it happen once in a while is certainly not dangerous. On the 2250+ bottles, they are rarely filled passed 2800/3000 psi, their hydro pressure is still 3750, so you are nowhere close to the safe pressure limits of the bottle, those are also not made anymore and not particularly common. The 3180+ bottles with the + have a full pressure of 3500 so filling them to 3600 isn't going to do anything. 3442/3500 psi bottles are only filled to 3600 or so, so no issues there, and the 2400+ bottles are the only potential points of contention but with 30 years of daily fills to 3600psi or more, and they continue to pass hydro with the + rating, I don't think anyone is going to bother stopping the practice of grossly overfilling the bottles, because time has proven that they can handle it and the hydrostatic testing verifies that they are still well within their specs when new.
 
Man...it is a lot more complicated then I thought. The tank that I have been diving with is a 100 steel. I'm new to the sport and I turned it up somewhat for the past two summers. I go to the wrecks BUT DONT ENTER. The deepest I do is 110 feet.
Being I did not see my name of my tanks any where on those lists can only lead me to believe the tank I have I not very good. If its not its OK...level with me.
When I looked on the tank this is what I read.
EKHR
GENESIS ST 100
SPUN JAPAN
DOT SP 12079
3442
TP 5250
Plus obvious hydro stamp
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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