The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Peter Guy]

mp wrote

the point is that the old timers were taught to be well-rounded divers who could venture forth and continue to learn on their own.

Thal replied

You are spot on, what has been lost in most training programs is teaching the new diver how to learn on their own and getting them to the point that they are comfortable doing so.

Well, all I can say is "Thank God there are agencies and instructors now that have experience AND training to teach ALL divers new things. No longer does each diver have to reinvent the wheel and learn by touching the stove --- sometimes to find it very hot."

I do not have the experience, training or history that Thal, DC, etc. have -- but I do have more than most for I was trained "old style" 40+ years ago. I then had the advantage of encouraging my father to learn to dive and he became an avid diver in 1967 and continued to dive for 20+ years (can't quite remember when he quit but he's 92 now).

He only took 1 class -- Open Water (NAUI) which had One (1) open water checkout dive. The rest of what he learned, navigation, night diving, deep diving (he really doesn't know how deep because our depth gauges pegged out), etc. was all done by trial and error. AND THERE WAS A LOT OF ERROR in the diving. I think, probably, what saved him and his buddies was that we all dove 72's and there just wasn't enough gas to allow us to get into much trouble.

We/he knew about Narcosis but, if his memory is accurate which I think it is, didn't know about such things as OxToxing -- even though doing 200'+ dives on air wasn't uncommon (on double 72's). He thought he was just getting Narced when he heard the locomotive and his vision narrowed -- more likely he was getting ready to OxTox.

And of course he followed the Navy Tables -- except after he got his Bend-O-Matic (Scubapro?) which showed him his N2 absorption and thus became his guide to NDL's.

His father, my grandfather, who did, in fact, Ride the Range and dig for Klondike gold, was very fond of saying, "The good old days, Hell, there weren't any good old days."

MP, Thal, DC, et al -- I much prefer the training I've gotten which allows me to be a much safer, and honestly, better, diver than my father ever had the chance to be. And I believe his father had it right and it applies to Scuba Diving Training -- "Good old days, Hell, THESE Are the Good Old Days." (With apologies to Carly Simon.)

 

[Thalassamania]

It was not always a matter of touching the hot stove, there were books, mentors, etc., but it was a matter of organizing the information for yourself and drilling with your buddy.

 

[Crush]

MP, Thal, DC, et al -- I much prefer the training I've gotten which allows me to be a much safer, and honestly, better, diver than my father ever had the chance to be. And I believe his father had it right and it applies to Scuba Diving Training -- "Good old days, Hell, THESE Are the Good Old Days." (With apologies to Carly Simon.)

Peter Guy, I can't say that I pine for any good ol days - I very much like the training I received. I can't compare my training to the good ol days in any objective manner because I was never there.

I suppose that what I am saying is that I believe (for what it is worth) an OW cert should allow you to safely venture forth and explore (provided that you have a level head), which is precisely why I find the idea of a drysuit course to be confusing - surely anyone intelligent enough to learn tables can be given some printed literature and told to practice at a quarry. Are new students incapable of learning drysuit diving without a special course? Or are they being told to take a course they don't need? Of course some might choose the security of such a course rather than try to learn on their own...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Funny thing is that I've issued several drysuit diver c-cards ... but I don't own one. When I got my first drysuit, my friend Terkel took me out and taught me how to use it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Guy Alcala]

Funny thing is that I've issued several drysuit diver c-cards ... but I don't own one. When I got my first drysuit, my friend Terkel took me out and taught me how to use it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As well as an additional revenue generator, I think it's mainly a legal CYA for shops that rent them. I don't know of any shops in Monterey or the Bay Area that will rent you one without a card. This is often silly, as two of my regular dive buddies have been diving dry for two or three years in their own suits which they bought used, but can't rent different models to try them out because they didn't take a course (even though they've read the book). Someone (me, in one case) just took them out and ran them through the inflator emergencies and did a couple of dives with them.

One got a friendly local instructor who knew him to give him the application form, and only charged him for the card. The other just bought a new Fusion without having tried one (we both did this past weekend at the Whites demo day in Monterey, as his hadn't arrived yet), so apparently the Whites' people were satisfied that his answers on the liability release that he owned and used a dry suit meant he was unlikely to kill himself, and/or they were off the hook if he did (they weren't charging either, which may have been a factor).

Guy

 

[Peter Guy]

mp asked

Are new students incapable of learning drysuit diving without a special course?

I would hope not! As Thal pointed out, there are numerous sources of information in addition to "the hot stove" and now, of course, even online learning! But with almost all physical skills, I believe they are best learned with someone with experience with/in the skill watching/coaching.

Do you need to take a dry suit class to learn to dive with a dry suit? No -- but I think it would be easier to learn if you had an experienced person help you the first time or two because there are some "tricks." The same goes for just about any other specific skill (read specialty class) that is taught.

For example, did I take a class in diving doubles? Nope -- put them on and swam around a pool for a while and then did some dives with experienced friends. They watched and coached. Eventually I did get some "formal training" in "perfecting the use" of doubles which I found to be quite beneficial. (BTW, some of that formal training also enhanced my dry suit skills too.)

The advantage of a set class is that one hopes (and this may be a big leap of faith) the "trained instructor" has both the experience in the skill AND the training to impart the knowledge -- the latter is something that may be missing from someone who just has the experience.

 

[DCBC]

"The good old days, Hell, there weren't any good old days."

I can't say that I agree with the above statement, as there are usually both positive and negative things in every time-period. Back then there wasn't such a thing as a instant buddy who wasn't competent. At least I never came across one until much later; when I had a dive charter operation and my Staff and I had to perform in-water rescues all too frequently.

Certainly there is a great advantage in not "touching the hot stove." I started my training in 1964. At that time, there were not many certified instructors around, but I was fortunate to have Ben Davis who was on the first NAUI instructors course, as my instructor. There were also quite a few experienced divers in the Club who were happy to act as mentors. Back then, diver training was Club focused, so the sale of equipment couldn't be considered a conflict of interest when it came to diver certification. Diving instruction was much more intensive and extensive than it is today.

Those who know me will attest to my strong belief in the need for a diver to not totally rely on their equipment. I believe in the buddy system (in most cases), strong in-water ability and redundancy where feasible. I don't believe that anyone can be overly prepared/trained for the diving environment. A new diver is better off with 100 hours of initial training rather than 10. I understand that there has to be a happy medium, but I don't see that the current training standards reasonably address what's required for various diving conditions.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A new diver is better off with 100 hours of initial training rather than 10.

Therein lies the problem with these discussions ... they always seem to boil down to extremes.

In some respects, 100 hours of training can be just as bad as 10 hours ... because it will inhibit a diver's development. Of course, the proper amount of training is going to depend on the diver's learning style, goals, and diving environment. And that's the problem with any cookie-cutter solution to dive training. As I've seen many times with some of my friends who are GUE-trained, excessive training holds you back from gaining real-world experience that can, at some point, become more instructive than the structured class.

When is enough, enough? Personally, I think when you can achieve the goals of the class with a modest amount of challenge, and perform your skills repeatably with confidence ... even if they're not smooth and perfect. At that point, putting some real-world context to your skills will usually gain you more than repeating the skills to perfection in the artificial environment of a class.

A lot of people learn best by doing. Sure, you want to give them enough information, skill and confidence that they are moving in the right direction. But then they need to be turned loose from the class and given the opportunity to put their skills and knowledge to use outside of the class ... where they can develop an understanding of WHY they needed to learn those things. You can't do that in class, no matter how good the class is. Because a class, by definition, becomes a game of guessing what the instructor wants. It inhibits independent decision-making ... and making good decisions is one of the most important skills any diver can develop.

As you say, there has to be a happy medium ... more is not always better.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

As you say, there has to be a happy medium ... more is not always better.

Yes, more is not always better; if it were the class would never end and it wouldn't be a "happy medium." The trick is to insure that the student possesses sufficient in-water ability, confidence, and is adequately prepared for the conditions. Training standards must reasonably address these conditions; if they don't they're inadequate.

 

[TCDiver1]

Peter Guy, I can't say that I pine for any good ol days - I very much like the training I received. I can't compare my training to the good ol days in any objective manner because I was never there.

I suppose that what I am saying is that I believe (for what it is worth) an OW cert should allow you to safely venture forth and explore (provided that you have a level head), which is precisely why I find the idea of a drysuit course to be confusing - surely anyone intelligent enough to learn tables can be given some printed literature and told to practice at a quarry. Are new students incapable of learning drysuit diving without a special course? Or are they being told to take a course they don't need? Of course some might choose the security of such a course rather than try to learn on their own...

I've never been a big fan of the c-card/patch collecting mentality but some people are. I see no problem offering a specialty like a drysuit course. One doesn't have to take it, it's not required, but if you want to it's there.

One of the only specialty type certs i ever got was ice diver because we wanted to learn how we were supposed to be doing it after years of doing it with no formal training. I learned some good things from that course but we had (by common sense and trial and error) gotten it pretty close on our own.

My experience was similar to Peters father. Frankly it amazes me today that some of us are still here. Many of the things that we considered normal back then, we now know were really ill advised.