This dive was a 10+

[MikeFerrara]

It's easy to use one small aspect of DIR, such as being able to acess the diaphram on a reg, to justify an equipment choice, but this style of diving requires looking at the big picture and choosing a piece of gear that holds as few points of failure as possible. For example, I carry very few hoses or parts as spares when we are on trips and I can cover all of our teams regs if there is an unexpected failure.

How can you refer to being able to access the diaphragm on a reg as än aspect of DIR?

Specifically which style of diving are we talking about?

As far as the reliability of poseiden regs I think you need a little more data to show there's a problem with them. Your argument so far wouldn't fly in an engineering review of the design. I've never used them but I know several who do who have, by the way, laid more line than most here will ever see and in places that most here would never go.

It's nice to have regs that can all use the same parts but...hoses are the only parts that you can interchange between most regs. Do all your buds dive with the same regs so they can swap seats, o-rings and diaphragms?

What about your cars, do you all drive cars that use the same tires so that you can carry less spares on the trip?

In my experience the most common reg failure by far is free flow due to freezing. I have probably seen more divers standing around cussing their scubapro for free flowing than any other reg. That's a problem.

 

[JamesP]

How can you refer to being able to access the diaphragm on a reg as än aspect of DIR?

Mike

How do you fix up a flooding second stage on a dive? By removing the diaphragm. We said we have seen upstream valves fail in the worst way. We have period. We do not need an engineer to tell us this. We have seen it real life. Beat it to death dude but we do not dive them for a good reason

 

[Limestone Diver]

Several years ago my budy and I dove Jetstreams. My personal experience is that the donut style is prone to early failure which, I believe, is why poseidon integrated an OPRV into the newer 1st stage design. I had this failure happen only 2 months after servicing at one point. This can also make servicing difficult in that several seats are sometimes required to make the i/p lock up and stop creeping. Oceanic also had a 1st stage with the same style seat and the same problems with that seat.

On our last dive with these regs, my buddy had a 2nd stage lock up completely and stop delivering gas. When we exited the water, we determined that the I/P was still holding, but we weren't able to disassemble the 2nd stage until we returned home. By the time we looked at it, the second stage was working properly again. This was the last time either of us dove poseidons again.

Kevin: If the donut you refer to is the Hp seat, I think you should have talked to the reg tech that serviced your reg. When the new 5000 series first stages came out many techs who had not recieved the Poseidon Update clinic at Dema where installing the older service kits in the newer first stages. The new seats are a toupe colour and look soft, while the old ones are brown and hard. The new seats also have a small slit in the side to allow for the seat to ballance pressures between the two sides of the valve. If you install an old seat in a new reg it will develop a Ip creap leading to the OPV to vent.
As for the OPV - if I remember correctly-- it is requirement for EN certification and for commercial use. It by no means was an add-on to fix a problem.
From a previous post I take it that you are a reg tech for some brands. As such you should know that regular updates are required. If you are a Poseidon Tech then I suggest you contact Canadian Divers- (613-659-4585) and get yourself on the next reg tech update. I only say this because I have serviced 30 poseidons this winter and have never had to use a second seat- the service kit comes with one seat- and that is all you will need to service the reg. If you are playing with life support equipment then you should know what you are doing... I can only hope that you don't take chances with other peoples regs when you service them.
As for the problem you experienced with the poseidons-- it is the first I have ever heard of this problem. The only cases that are close to this- and they where from OPV's that where eradically activating was from people using the wrong seats. And as far as reliability goes I have a Jetsream reg with a Cyklon 5000 that I keep on my boat for fun dives- I haven't bothered to service it for 3 seasons- and it still works perfectly.

P.S.
You can also unscrew the Puck from the body to clear it or take the purge cover off to clean the Cyklon. The Jetsream is more difficult and I wouldn't recomend taking it appart except on a reg bench. But since 1994 I have never had a Jetstream clog up--I've had them blow ice pellets at me--but I don't tend to dive in crap so nothing should lodge in the radial exhaust port.

Cliff Rowe
Limestone Dive Centre

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike

How do you fix up a flooding second stage on a dive? By removing the diaphragm. We said we have seen upstream valves fail in the worst way. We have period. We do not need an engineer to tell us this. We have seen it real life. Beat it to death dude but we do not dive them for a good reason

A flooding reg can be breathed without taking it apart. If one of the diapgragms have been damaged it's a wast of time anyway. If I had plenty of gas and didn't have to be on it very long I probably wouldn't bother taking it apart I'd just purge to breath.

I hear what you're saying but I also know divers who between them have done thousands of cave dives all over the world without problems and really love the regs.

I'm not trying to get you to use them. I don't even use them but I am wondering how it is that you guys have had so much trouble while others who have used them for so many years haven't.

What about cliffs post? It doesn't sound to me like the regs will lock up at all. I wonder what went wrong with yours.

 

[Silverback]

OK, I'm coming back in and letting ya all know that what your going to read isn't from me... its from my better half who is also a very experienced diver in the recreational world.

happy reading....

Wow,first of all, great ice diving pictures and I would kneel on th rocks if I had to,too! I can do things without "kneeling" if I had 200 ft below me. If I am not creating a silty environment for myself or my fellow divers and as the picutres showed, kneeling didn't create a dangerous situation..then why not kneel.
Why...because I can! I cannot believe that picture would rate any comments regarding someone's diving techniques or the phots would stir this kind of debate regarding what equipment is better or not!!! Thanks Cliff for your input.

Diving is a happy recreation and we are all different and unique as the individuals diving. The different car scenario says it all. It would be a boring world if we all thought and did the same in all of our life. Diving is dangerous and wonderful. No way, is the right way! We take the responsibility and risk
upon ourselves and know our buddies lives are important too!

You all sound like a bunch of young boys that never got to stick up for yourselves when you were little and now you can. The message I read is......MY GI JOE DOLL is better than yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy and safe diving is the key here. You ALL sound like you know what you are doing. Don't sit with a pen and paper and find what is wrong with everyone's diving..enjoy and see the good in what people are doing.

Happy Valentines Day to all the "Techy" Boys!

Sweetcakes

 

[JamesP]

Happy Valentines Day to all the "Techy" Boys!

Sweetcakes

Happy Valentines Day Linda

 

[JamesP]

A flooding reg can be breathed without taking it apart. If one of the diapgragms have been damaged it's a wast of time anyway. If I had plenty of gas and didn't have to be on it very long I probably wouldn't bother taking it apart I'd just purge to breath.

I hear what you're saying but I also know divers who between them have done thousands of cave dives all over the world without problems and really love the regs.

I'm not trying to get you to use them. I don't even use them but I am wondering how it is that you guys have had so much trouble while others who have used them for so many years haven't.

What about cliffs post? It doesn't sound to me like the regs will lock up at all. I wonder what went wrong with yours.

Mike

This is my final reply to you. Re- read the posts, all I mentioned were upstream valves. You folks got into the Poseidon better then everything else routine. Poseidon is now using down stream valves. What about Cliffs post? Poseidon was a bench mark reg in the 1960’s . Times have changed. And like I said before when you mentioned this. Just because lots of folks are diving them doesn’t make it right.

Please re-read your last couple of posts. Once you start into the analogies and innuendos you have lost the discussion and there is nothing of value left to debate. I have never dove upstream valve and never will. The only failures I have had over the years were mk20’s free-flowing no matter was done to them in 32f water (they worked fine above this temp) and my DS4’s in 33 to 34f water as the IP’s were set too high.

I did not suggest replacing a damaged diaphragm. You access the diaphragm to clear debris from the exhaust. I fail to see the point of suffering through breathing a flooding regulator. All this does is increase the stress level on a dive. There is no risk management in your approach. It would be more beneficial to switch out the regulator if you are not comfortable with simply clearing the exhaust valve.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike

This is my final reply to you. Re- read the posts, all I mentioned were upstream valves. You folks got into the Poseidon better then everything else routine. Poseidon is now using down stream valves. What about Cliffs post? Poseidon was a bench mark reg in the 1960’s . Times have changed. And like I said before when you mentioned this. Just because lots of folks are diving them doesn’t make it right.

I never said poseidens were better than anything. I just questioned the concerns about upstream valves. Rather than address specific failure modes and the results you offer that you've seen tham fail in the worst way and that's enough. ok, that's why I won't use a scubapro.

Please re-read your last couple of posts. Once you start into the analogies and innuendos you have lost the discussion and there is nothing of value left to debate. I have never dove upstream valve and never will. The only failures I have had over the years were mk20’s free-flowing no matter was done to them in 32f water (they worked fine above this temp) and my DS4’s in 33 to 34f water as the IP’s were set too high.

I made no innuendos and there has been no debate. You really can't call it a debate when one simply says that upstream valves are bad without offering any further explaination or analysis. See I told you those scubapeo's were bad news.

I did not suggest replacing a damaged diaphragm. You access the diaphragm to clear debris from the exhaust. I fail to see the point of suffering through breathing a flooding regulator. All this does is increase the stress level on a dive. There is no risk management in your approach. It would be more beneficial to switch out the regulator if you are not comfortable with simply clearing the exhaust valve.

First of all it's not all that stressfull if you're good. I have students practice it and they handle it ok. Taking a reg apart with heavy gloves on can add some stress (task loading) to the dive also. Hell, having a reg fail at all might be considered adding stress. LOL. It's no worse than having to feather the valve of a free flowing reg on a decompression bottle. Have you ever had to do that? It isn't that stressful.

The important point here though is the common causes for a flooding second stage. Often it's a problem with the exhaust valve and you can't do much with it on many regs, including an Apeks, from the inside. You might have to pull the exhaust T off which can be a real pain especially in cold water.

A little care in where you lay your stages and decompression bottles down should avoid the whole problem. The exception to that is sidemount guys who are crawling through really small nasty stuff.

 

[snuggle]

mike ..you seem to know alot about a reg that you have never used before..how in gods name can you say that breathing a flooded reg doesnt add to the stress..get real..NOT everyone is GOOD as you put it..everyone handles situations differently underwater and unfortunatly some dont survive either..

 

[JamesP]

Sweetcakes,

The reason we take a picture (we prefer video) and pull it apart, is that this is one of our best tools for debriefing a dive, It is a visual reference to what we are doing in the water. It is really one of our best tools for learning. I still get caught on video doing things I do not think that I am doing. Without the visual aid it makes it very difficult to correct the bad habits that can creep into a dive. A number of SB members have expressed an interested in diving with us this coming season. This is where the diving starts, long before anyone hits the water.

You said “we are all responsible to ourselves and our buddies.” That is why I took this opportunity to see what kind of responses and thinking were out there. We take it very seriously. This dive was rated at a plus 10, from where I stand it would never have left the surface. Please take this in the correct context. The thinking here is unparalleled. We obviously take risk management to an entirely different level.

This is not an attempt to make you all dive our way that would be a futile endeavor. It simple illustrates the vast difference in the thinking, approach and management of risk. We would have use the quarry dive to build on all our skills. We would not have let things slip just because this is a 20ft dive in a controlled environment. 20ft is the best depth for practice as it is the most dynamic part of the water column.