Thoughts on Taking Wreck Artifacts

[IwakuniDiver]

I know that there are few wreck divers that think it's perfectly acceptable to pillage any wreck they come across. Especially when that wreck is a war grave.

My question pertains to Mutsu specifically but could be expanded to include a few other sites as well I suppose. I have always had a strict policy for everyone that I take down on Mutsu with me of "look but don't touch" for the simple reason that it's a site where over 1000 Japanese sailors lost their lives. But an interesting point was brought up to me recently.

The Japanese government turned over salvage rights to Mutsu to the Fukeda Salvage Company in 1970 and they promptly began an 8 year salvage operation that brought up nearly 75% of the wreck's bulk. This included the bow, forward of turret 1, and nearly everything aft of the bridge. Here's a pic of what is left as of last year courtesy of LM Marine.

So my question is this. At this point what are your feelings on taking small, non-personal, artifacts from a wreck, such as gas masks or such after a wreck has been salvaged then abandoned? There are hundreds of such wrecks in the Japanese Coastal waters, both civilian and military, especially near Kure, in this particular state.

Not that I'm planning on altering my "don't touch" policy, I just wanted to gauge some opinions.

Scott

 

[do it easy]

I don't know all the history of the Mutsu, but I would still consider it a war grave regardless of what the Japanese government does to it. I assume that the salvage operation left the bodies and remains behind? Hypothetically, it seems wrong to push a few bones out of the way to get to a gas mask.

 

[SwimJim]

Think the Mask on forehead thing was big, this has been a hot debate on the Great Lakes for years. It will never go away. In corrosive, worm infested oceans that destroy anything placed in them in short order, I believe you may as well take and PRESERVE these items as they will be lost no matter what. In fresh water on the other hand the cold and silt tends to preseve things. In this case I believe you should go ahead and examine and photograph all you want, but put it back for future generations. Thats what the local laws dictate anyway. What good is an artifact anyway if it sits on a shelf in some guys garage? Then nobody gets to see it.

Jim

 

[Oyster Diver]

So my question is this. At this point what are your feelings on taking small, non-personal, artifacts from a wreck, such as gas masks or such after a wreck has been salvaged then abandoned? There are hundreds of such wrecks in the Japanese Coastal waters, both civilian and military, especially near Kure, in this particular state.

Not that I'm planning on altering my "don't touch" policy, I just wanted to gauge some opinions.

Scott

I believe it doesn't matter what the Japanese government has done, if you think it is morally or ethically wrong to take artifacts then you should leave them. Personally, I enjoy finding artifacts, but I will only take them if it is legal, I'm prepared to preserve them and the person who showed me the wreck agrees. If you show me a wreck under the condition that I leave it alone I will, even if I return later without you. For the Matsu specifically, I would probably take something IF my conditions were met, but I wouldn't move remains to get anything. I doubt I'll ever be in Japan, but if I was would you consider taking someone with my thoughts to see the wreck? She does have a lot of history.

Andrew

 

[rawls]

I would say go for it. Each situation is different regarding artifacts. You obviously don't take remains. You don't take things when it is illegal to do so. Get caught taking something from the Queen Anne's Revenge...or dive on it without authorization and you will quickly understand illegality. Then there are the gray areas. Ultimately we each have to make a decision relating to artifact retrieval, whether to take or leave it, take it and keep it, or take it and turn it over to a historical society for preservation...which is my favorite choice...I found a half of a plate on the Queen Anne's Revenge during an ok'd dive a few months ago. I promptly turned it over to the archeologists. It would have been very easy for me to hide it and take it home, but i did the right thing. But man wouldn't I have loved to have something that belonged to Blackbeard perched in my living room My personal opinion, in your case, it would be ok to take things you mentioned. It certainly doesn't sound like the Japanese gov't has a problem with it Ultimately we have to use our best judgement.

 

[String]

Lots of countries have laws against taking things off wrecks. Anything taken still BELONGS to the owner of the wreck so it has to be declared to the countries version of the receiver to contact the owner or decide a path. You cant just take and keep.

In addition to that war wrecks are quite often protected under higher acts again. The wrecks in the UK divers have ignored or pillaged that are war related have been protected and eventually diving is banned on some.
Divers then moan about not being allowed to dive it when in reality they have only themselves to blame.

 

[archman]

If a commercial salvage outfit can juggle large-scale materials extraction with (I'm assuming) respect and consideration for the interred remains, I don't see a problem with wreck divers behaving the same way.

This wreck seems less like a true "war grave" and more like a typical wreck that just happens to have human remains in it. As the government with jurisdiction rights isn't viewing the site as sacred, you are under no obligation to either. Thus, removal of non-personal artifacts is more of a personal decision up to the salvage diver.

 

[IwakuniDiver]

One of the reasons that I have been so cautious to allow people to take artifacts from the site is the legal reasons. All the time I see articles on Underwater Times about wrecks being pillaged and looted and I most definitely to not want to cause any legal issues for me or the people that I take down on the wreck.

Here's what I do know as far as this wreck is concerned. As of 1978 the Fukeda Salvage company owns the wreck and they probably still do. There was a memorial museum dedicated to the disaster constructed on an island 3km south of where she went down and that is for sure a sacred site. I don't know about the wreck itself.

Few people know about the wreck and even fewer dive her. It's unmarked except as an unnamed navigation hazard on charts.

Biggest reason of all for me is that we, as Americans living in Japan, are guests of the country and the Japanese are not always forthcoming as to what is deemed "offensive" or "innapropriate" as far as the conduct of foreigners is concerned. What may be considered "legal" may also be considered an insult to the local population and I think it's a privilege to even be allowed to dive her.

Maybe I would think different of a small, commercial, or private wreck that sank due to a collision or ran a ground and nobody died.

 

[IwakuniDiver]

I believe it doesn't matter what the Japanese government has done, if you think it is morally or ethically wrong to take artifacts then you should leave them. Personally, I enjoy finding artifacts, but I will only take them if it is legal, I'm prepared to preserve them and the person who showed me the wreck agrees. If you show me a wreck under the condition that I leave it alone I will, even if I return later without you. For the Matsu specifically, I would probably take something IF my conditions were met, but I wouldn't move remains to get anything. I doubt I'll ever be in Japan, but if I was would you consider taking someone with my thoughts to see the wreck? She does have a lot of history.

Andrew

Sure, you bet. I'm always happy to take any qualified divers on wreck dives with us. We're a small, tight-knit group here but we all love sharing our experiences with others. If you're ever in the Hiroshima area, look us up!

Scott

 

[archman]

duplicate threads merged.