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Greg G.

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I absolutely agree that it should be at the instructor level as to wether they agree to accept someone for OW training. Problem is, most are accepted as long as they got an ok from the Doc. I know of only one instructor who ever turned away someone because they felt they were not physically suited for diving (it was someone who was very obese in this case). In that situation, the instructor was also the shop owner who was known for being very paranoid about getting sued for liability. So much so that even though I had been diving for six years and had a DM cert from another agency, she would not let me take the cross-over course until I got a written ok from the doc because I had bad hearing.

I've dived with at least one person who's eustachian (sp?) tubes were so messed up from an operation it took her a long time for ascents/descents, only wanted to stay at one depth during the dive, yet she was still cleared by a doc as ok to dive!

Another problem is pressure from the store to accept them. I really believe that instructors should be able to keep more of the tuition, or at least split 50/50 with the store. I was appalled when I learned that most of the tuition for the OW class goes to the store, the instructor only gets $50! Sure, they keep more of it when the student goes on to AOW, Rescue, and so on, but in the real world there aren't nearly as many that do that as those who just take the OW. I think if the financial incentive was better, you would get better instructors and more of them. As it is now, most of them treat it like a hobby, they just do it for the fun of it, same with DM's. Some flexibility in the way the tuition is split, (e.g. give the DM a take) and even in the pricing would bring more competition and incentive. I would have probably stayed an active DM longer if there was at least some cash incentive. As it was, all I was getting was free air (but only for classes) and a hearty "thank you" from the students. That coupled with a personality clash with the instructor pretty much killed my enthusiasm. I know most DM's get a few more perks than I was, e.g. price breaks on gear, but even then I didn't think it was that great because I could get the same kind of price breaks, sometimes even better ones, during sales.

Also, the litigation-happy society we live in doesn't help the matter any. Instructors and stores are afraid of being sued for discrimination if they so much as even look cross-eyed at someone.

It's hard for me to picture a para or quadra-plegic towing a tired or injured diver, especially in a current situation. I know there's organizations that specialize in working with handicapped divers, but personally it's not something I would want to get involved with. More power to them if they can do it safely, but not with me.

Originally posted by King_Neptune
I also wanted to mention one more thing ...


Yes, I believe diving isn't for everyone, and I think Instructors should have the willpower to take their pocket books out of the picture and have the human decency, honesty and common sense to know when to NOT accept some people for scuba diving lessons.

Do I think someone without a set of limbs can or should be diving? Absolutely! ... and Why not?
Sure, there should be a line drawn, but that is not a line I feel can be drawn in concrete. I've known some people that could catch a common cold or have a small handicap or someone calls them a name and they fall to pieces... But on the other side of the coin, I've known people that are missing both legs or some other rather limiting handicap that could swim circles around most all of us.

That's why I would have to say that the responsibility should be more on the Instructor than the agency. The agency can't say who is fit and who isn't from behind a desk or a stuffy suit. Sure they could say that anyone that falls into the category of X,Y, and Z needs a written release from their doctor, but that still doesn't mean that just any instructor is qualified or able to meet the special needs that may be present or even be prepared to handle those sort of situations in the event of a problem. Unfortunately this places an Instructor into a position of looking "Inadequate" or makes them feel like that "Aren't a good Instructor" which isn't the case at all. The day that situation happened to me didn't have to be like that. There is a difference between "Wisdom" and "Knowledge" and I know for a fact that Instructor is very knowledgeable, but just because you can answer all the test questions right, doesn't mean you have the Wisdom (or common sense) to be in charge of someone else's life like that.

... my $0.02 ... anyone have change for a nickle ....

=-)




 
Greg,

I agree that diving is not for everyone, but I think that to label someone as unsuitable for diving just because of a perceived disability is wrong too. There are some perfectly fit individuals who should not be diving just because of their attitude (these are the ones that get other divers killed trying to rescue them from the stupid situations they have gotten themselves into). You know, more "balls" than brains (and its not just men, I know some women who are like that, too).

And there are people like my freind Donna D. who was born with Spina Bifida, but who is one of the best dive buddies I've ever had. I would rather trust her with my life in an emergency situation than than an diver with a "daring-do" attitude. Donna knows what her limitations are and will admit she needs help, so we dive accordingly. In an emergency she uses her head and her training. But not "super-diver" who always have to go deeper, longer, and into to places that they are not qualified to go.

So everybody should get at chance to try. But I agree with you that the instructor should do his best to weed out the unsuitable, not just because of physical impairment but because of attitude also.

Incidently, here in Austin there was a scuba club specifically for divers with disabilities and their buddies called Eels on Wheels. Their policy was 2 physically fit divers with each disabled diver.
 
I was focusing strictly on ones physical fitness for diving. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who think that only Navy Seals material should be diving, I'm just saying a little common sense should be used. I saw a show on combat diver training once, gawd, I hurt just watching it!

The "non compus mentas" types are an entirely different matter and a potentialy HUGE subject, e.g. the "religious denomination" arguments over NAUI v. PADI v SSI et al, ad nauseum.

Originally posted by cat diver
Greg,

I agree that diving is not for everyone, but I think that to label someone as unsuitable for diving just because of a perceived disability is wrong too. There are some perfectly fit individuals who should not be diving just because of their attitude (these are the ones that get other divers killed trying to rescue them from the stupid situations they have gotten themselves into). You know, more "balls" than brains (and its not just men, I know some women who are like that, too).

And there are people like my freind Donna D. who was born with Spina Bifida, but who is one of the best dive buddies I've ever had. I would rather trust her with my life in an emergency situation than than an diver with a "daring-do" attitude. Donna knows what her limitations are and will admit she needs help, so we dive accordingly. In an emergency she uses her head and her training. But not "super-diver" who always have to go deeper, longer, and into to places that they are not qualified to go.

So everybody should get at chance to try. But I agree with you that the instructor should do his best to weed out the unsuitable, not just because of physical impairment but because of attitude also.

Incidently, here in Austin there was a scuba club specifically for divers with disabilities and their buddies called Eels on Wheels. Their policy was 2 physically fit divers with each disabled diver.
 
Here's a couple of things to think about:
I for one fork for a shop whom pays very well, they understand that by paying an instructor what they're worth, helps to retain quality staff.

An instructor has a great deal of overhead to deal with, in that you pay yearly membership dues, insurance dues, and the purchasing and upkeep of gear as well. The gear gets used more often, and it's often to the students benefit that the instructor has access to a broad range of different product brands. Most shops offer a pro-deal program that links their professional staff directly to the manufacturers.

We do/did however bump heads when or if I needed to not have a particular student in class. I won't get into the specific reasons now though... Ultimately it's the instructors responsibility to accept and train a student. I can honestly say that I have never issued a C-card to a student just for attending classes. I make it very clear that I intend to help them out until they actually do achieve mastery in the required skills.

A DM is also a professional, whom should be recognized as such. A DM should be paid accordingly and treated with respect. What most instructors lose sight of when working with a DM is that, they will model themselves after the style of the instructor. They learn tips, tricks and many other things that will help them take the next big step in the Scuba Education training ladder. All too often a DM is used as a gear carrier, or someone an instructor appoints to work with "problem" students. I can't emphasize how wrong that is. :(

Anyway, for a DM, the best thing that you could possibly do is work with as many different instructors as possible, and work hard to retain all the good qualities you see in them, add your own flavor to that and, voile you have a hella good DM! :wink:

Mario
 
How exactly do they "pay well"? I don't want a $ figure, but are you paid a salary, or do they let you keep most or even all the tuition? I haven't heard of an instructor who did little more than break even. All the ones I know do something else full time for a real job, dive instruction is a side-line that only pays for itself at best. If you've had a different experience, I would like to hear about it.

DM's also have the same kind of overhead, and also have to carry liability insurance, but yet they receive no cash benefits, only perks at best. Well, maybe some cash from teaching snorkeling or scuba refresher, but after the shop takes their cut, you end up working for less than minimum wage. And you are very correct in that DM's are mostly used as "sherpas". If I'm going to shell out a lot of time, effort, and money, I don't feel I'm being unreasonable in wanting a return on my investment. I hate to sound like I'm whining, but I tried it and can honestly say that for me, it's just not worth it.
 
Here's some specifics to ponder. The shop pays for insurance, pays $90 per o/w student all the way to $425 for each D/M student that finishes the course(with partial $ for partial completion as well)

DM pay is at the descretion of the instructor(s), in my case (depending on class size) anywhere from $100-$200 for pool and Ocean help per class. It also depends on class type, the amounts I just mentioned are for o/w.

Any instructor knows what a DM's overhead is, because they were there at one point too.

Mario
 
Being in the dive industry and diving daily for my "bread and butter" I come across all sorts of divers. Divers who have been certified for years that act like they've never been in the water before and new Resort Course people that get a tank on their back and dive like a pro on their 1st dive. As a matter of fact, just today I dove with a "mentally challenged" person who is handicapped certified and dives with his mom as his buddy. Awesome! So, discretion
by the instructor is a definite!
DSAO! Case
 
Mario, Do I understand you correctly? Your shop pays for the insurance to cover OW students and DM's in training? If so, I've never heard about this.

As a working DM, I pay my own insurance, my own expences to and from the pool and/or open water location as well as any overnight expenses incurred. The typical overnight trip will cost me $100. That gets expensive if you do it every weekend! The instructor nor the dive shop pays me any money for my services. On overnight OW trips, the instructor will usually buy my dinner. The high chlorine levels in the public pools we use will flat eat your gear alive and it's my checkbook that gets hit to replace it. I do get all my air and Nitrox free, whether it's for class or not. And a 20% discount of anything I buy in the store.

I am tired of being treated as a D-ive M-ule and saddled with every problem student that comes along. Especially when I virtually pay to be there. Right now, there are only 3 instructors in our shop that I will work with. These guys don't pay me but I am treated with respect and as a professional equal. I have found that some instructors have a problem having a woman DM...until there is a problem student they have pretty much washed their hands of!

Anyway, that's the way it works in the Houston area...I haven't heard of it being different at any of the other shops. Thanks for letting me vent!

Dee
 
Board,
Just curious, what is the cost to the student for O/W course on the west coast. Here in "Y'all country" the classes right now are $130.00, aka "dive wars".
I don't know any instructors in my area that don't have "real" jobs to support their habit.

D/M getting paid, well we don't get cash, but I get my gear & most anything else at cost +10%, not bad. Plus don't know when I last paid for a tank fill or inspection. Insurance is outta my pocket.

As for "challenged individuals" the instructor needs to know when to take that BIG RED S off of his chest and be able to say "I'M not qualified to teach you, but I can find an instructor that is". The ones I dive with now know their limits. Being an instructor does not make them all knowing, invincible or bullet proof, it just allows them to teach.
I agree with the 2 not challenged divers to 1 challenged diver. If you are diving with a challenged diver you are more or less diving solo and you need to be aware of this and to be able to handle any emergency as such + your buddies well being.

As for female D/M I'm all for you. Y'all have a special way about you to handle the special situtations that calm a person down and not just the difficult people either. I for one hve no problems with female D/Ms and welcome your presence, I always leave my "manly jewels" at home when I go diving, because everybody can learn something from everybody. You are no different than me, except that you are shapped different:) and that makes it a plus.

Y'all got .03 outta me this time.
How do you send change across the forum?
BTW the "West coast" can be either California or Florida
 
$100-200 per class for DM's?!! And they pay insurance?!!! Where is this place?! That is unheard of where I come from (the NW mostly). My experience is more like Dee's.
 
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