Tobermory - Diving Fatality

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Starfish,

My comments were not aimed at the guy who died of the ulcer at depth.

They were in response to remarks made along the lines that the Arabia is a breeze to dive but thank you for your kind assumptions as to my motives and the level of "cruelty" which I possess.

Not one of my statements were aimed at the gentleman who recently died nor am I the person who originally brought this discussion off topic although posting an accident is generally for the purpose of discussion and analysis no matter how amateurish and cruel you may regard it.

If you feel uncomfortable involving yourself in the said discussion please feel free to remove yourself.

Thanks.
 
d33ps1x:
People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.


Amen to that! I know of at least 2 divers personally that were given "advanced" open water dives right after their open water dives. I personally think this sort of practice is foolish.
 
I also meant no disrespect to the diver who just died on the Arabia nor any other diver. Nor have I or would I ever say diving the Arabia is a breeze, in fact I haven't dove it yet myself, because I know it's not an easy dive. I don't see where anyone said it was, just some comments that the current is not as stiff as the St. Lawrence or Niagara rivers. I do know that the diver who died while on training dives earlier this year did know he had a medical condition, but did not "share" that knowledge with the LDS or his instructors. As well there was an MD with a a known heart condition who died on a wreck in Brockville last summer.

d33ps1x, an ulcer? Where'd you find that? Not doubting, just curious, I wouldn't have thought an ulcer would contraindicate diving, I'll have to go visit DAN. Everything I've read speculated a heart attack or stated "pre-existing condition". Too bad the press is never as quick to publish the follow up details (the truth) as they are the to splash the death and speculation across the pages.
 
Groundhog246:
d33ps1x, an ulcer? Where'd you find that? Not doubting, just curious, I wouldn't have thought an ulcer would contraindicate diving, I'll have to go visit DAN. Everything I've read speculated a heart attack or stated "pre-existing condition". Too bad the press is never as quick to publish the follow up details (the truth) as they are the to splash the death and speculation across the pages.


I believe you can find the information (or heresay) in the accidents and incidents section.

The post in specific:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=752246&postcount=7

The thread as a whole:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t70010-tobermory-fatality.html
 
d33ps1x:
Are people getting carried away?

There have been a lot of deaths on the Arabia but that, much like the Marsh in Kingston, is mostly because it is a very popular wreck that entices people who shouldn't be in 110 feet of lakewater to go visit her. We often forget that diving up here most days is considered extreme diving elsewhere in the world. It's dark, it's cold, and the gear considerations make it doubly hard. Throw in a low vis day with the narcosis of 110 feet, a single 80 cylinder with a crap fill, and a not so experienced diver and you have a very potent recipe for disaster time and again. It's no wonder so many people die on the thing.

People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.

Advanced certification is an ill concieved cash grab that is fed buy a dive shop and charter industry that enjoys the $250 or so plus fills plus equipment rentals plus charters to take you on 5 guided dives over two days with little or no in class time spent. It's probably the only course that shops make a clear cut GOOD profit on and it does nothing for the diver except allow them to step onto a boat and do an "advanced" dive that they probably shouldn't be doing. The arguement is that it is guided time in the water doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own for experience. True. But if you think you are at your safest and about to become an advanced diver by being jammed in the water with 5 or 6 other students and 1 instructor and 1 dm at 100 feet for one dive you are kidding yourself. It leaves you completely lacking to do a wreck in the 110 foot range.

The remainder of those deaths are as someone mentioned earlier,"old guy issues", due to health pre-conditions or poor health in general. Luckily the majority of deaths in the water seem to be due to poor health according to DAN reports. I mean luckily because it is not a diving related issue per say. The same things arguably could have happened playing hockey or some other sport. However, the sooner training agencies stop pushing the idea that diving is NOT a sport and doesn't require good health and fitness the sooner we will stop seeing so many deaths like heart attacks while diving.

I'm not talking about simply overweight. I am talking about healthy. There IS a difference. Big people can have the heart, lungs and muscle to handle a situation that a rake thin dude may not because he has a low cardio tolerance, precondition , etc. Everything is hunky dory until there IS a current or something and then these poor folks little couch potato hearts pop like a champagne cork after the championship game.

At the end of the day it is really up to the diver if they can and should do the dive. Let's face it. A lot of people get into diving because they consider it an extreme sport and WANT to push their boundaries and take risks. Others prefer getting all the training they can to offset the risk factors. The first group have just as much right and just as valid a reason as the second and as long as their attitude and outlook don't endanger the latter half then what is the big deal. They pay their insurance and taxes too. I personally like the training and have attempted to prepare myself as best I can physically, skillwise, knowledgewise and equipmentwise. Thats it really. I'm just not a risk taker and I picture myself dying an angry little (dirty) old man some far away day.

Just one vocal opinion. Others may and will vary.


Whow!!
Without taking a 3rd. breath
( I coudn't have read it all on a 2nd. )
Well place opinion! Put Another Buck In
Oops did I spell PADI wrong?
 
Rooster1:
Amen to that! I know of at least 2 divers personally that were given "advanced" open water dives right after their open water dives. I personally think this sort of practice is foolish.

I think this is the way it should be done. Most of the AOW "skills" (except maybe fish ID) shoold be part of the basic course. It should be up to the diver to then use some common sense when he sets out on his own.
 
No one would disagree with you there Joe but the issue is that if you tack on 2 or 3 more days of diving and another 250 plus charters to an OW course your average student won't take the course. They will go to the guy next door that will do it for $199 or in the case of a shop I saw up at the Morrison $159 I think it says on the side of their truck.

The uneducated consumer is as much to blame for the poor state of affairs in the scuba industry as the shops are. Could you imagine Universities competing by slashing educational prices in bids to capture the greater student market share?

The average consumer wants it cheap, they want it easy and they want to expend as little effort as possible doing so. The dive industry gladly cater to that wish with the current OW offerings that are popular out there. If they don't then the next shop will.

The coin has two sides so to speak. The quote another common cliche that is so very true: There is nothing common about common sense.
 
I am one of those divers who took their advanced course very soon after my open water, very soon in experience not time. I did my open water then six various dives and then took my advanced.

From one of d33ps1x posts, I am one of those risktakers that like pushing themselves. This is not just in SCUBA but skydiving, skiing, climbing you can see the pattern.

However; the reason I took the advanced course was not for the "complete knowledge" of deep dives cramed into one dive. It was to get a taste for what I like, points to improve form an experienced professional and a little more knowledge of my limitation as an up and coming diver.

As far as I'm concerned the current and night dives are the most fun. But I'm not going to rush out, buy a walmart dive light and go for my first solo deep night wreck dive just because I did it on the advanced course. There is always someone who will dive beyond their limits, but I think that has nothing to do with being an advanced course graduate.

But that's just my two cents.
 
Nor is the advanced certification some badge of honour and entry into the fraternity of skilled divers. It's one dive in each of 5 diciplines.

It's also a very expensive way to gain the little experience that you get. I think taking a GUE Fundamentals course for actually quite a bit less after you factor in the charters needed for most advanced dives is a far better value for the money and an excellent next step for any OW diver. But that is also dreaming of an ideal world for me. :D
 
Is this the lead-in for the upcoming DIRf course I'm in the middle of setting up D33p?

Uhuh, yes I am, the Niagara Region's first. Lets hope we can find 6 divers out of hundreds that think like you and I do, bud.

Steve
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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