Today's OW Course

[rstofer]

<groan> One more thing!

If that follow-on PPB (or whatever) class isn't the very next weekend after OW, the instructor has probably lost the student to the 75% group. Odds are...

The instructor has to lay out the path, the shop has to schedule the facilities and the entire process has to be easy for the student. Cajoling the student into taking PPB as an opportunity to get more diving experience while still learning a skill is what it's all about. More supervised dives. Falling out of sequence should not doom a diver to stranding. The following weekend they can take S&R and catch up with PPB next month. Although, personally, I would think PPB is a better 2d course.

Instructors: get out and start selling classes. More training results in better divers.

Richard

 

[DCBC]

I understand that perfectly.

Well you definitely think you do.

The instructor chooses which agency or agencies they will represent. Around here, if they want to work, they WILL choose PADI. Even in this choice market forces are at work. There's no point in being an SSI instructor if no LDS represents SSI...

But I don't agree that the instructor drives anything.... it's the LDS that makes the decision to put the PADI decal on the windows. And the only reason they do it is that PADI has name recognition. Market forces at work...

Since you have been found of the words "Prove it," where are you getting your information? Are you an Instructor? Have you or do you own a LDS? Have you sold diving equipment? What makes you think you know what you're talking about?

Do you think that the only source of diving instruction is a PADI Training Facility? How about the other organizations, how do they survive in PADI's shadow?

The PADI sticker also comes with a downside and all but guarantees the disrespect of many divers and Instructors. The PADI Facility decal was placed on the front door of my Dive Shop at the bottom (not the top) for this reason. You can sell this to the uninformed, but not to the knowing.

The Instructor drives everything. Some however decide to buckle under the weight of various LDSs for money. Some work in this environment hoping to make a difference.

But at the end of the day, dive training is ALL about selling equipment. It isn't about training, it isn't about relationships. It's about revenue. Take the LDS out of the picture and all you have are a bunch of instructors with no way to connect with students. And no facilities...

It is the divers that run and own the LDS. Commerce has taken control in many (but not all) locations. If you took the LDS out of the picture, that wouldn't bother me or very many Instructors at all. It would be just like it was in the early 70's. Training was available and so were the equipment manufacturers. Instructors would do what I did; put-up posters at supermarkets, advertise in the newspaper and use their personal networking to get students (with the Internet, it would be even easier).

We're going to continue to disagree.... I have no intention of caving in. There's no reason in the world an instructor can't feel comfortable offering PPB, S&R and Navigation right after OW.

There's no reason in the world why an Instructor can't give a student the training he needs to be safe within the OW class.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

<groan> One more thing!

If that follow-on PPB (or whatever) class isn't the very next weekend after OW, the instructor has probably lost the student to the 75% group. Odds are...

The instructor has to lay out the path, the shop has to schedule the facilities and the entire process has to be easy for the student. Cajoling the student into taking PPB as an opportunity to get more diving experience while still learning a skill is what it's all about. More supervised dives. Falling out of sequence should not doom a diver to stranding. The following weekend they can take S&R and catch up with PPB next month. Although, personally, I would think PPB is a better 2d course.

Instructors: get out and start selling classes. More training results in better divers.

Richard

... but if you teach them decent buoyancy skills in OW, all of that rigamarole is completely unnecessary.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It is the divers that run and own the LDS. Commerce has taken control in many (but not all) locations. If you took the LDS out of the picture, that wouldn't bother me or very many Instructors at all. It would be just like it was in the early 70's. Training was available and so were the equipment manufacturers. Instructors would do what I did; put-up posters at supermarkets, advertise in the newspaper and use their personal networking to get students (with the Internet, it would be even easier).

It IS easier.

I teach out of my house ... have no affiliation whatsoever with any dive shop ... and yet I was teaching so much I had to take some time off to prevent burn-out. I've had students come all the way out to Seattle from as far away as Minnesota and Colorado to take classes with me. And heck ... I don't even advertise.

That's not to brag ... but rather to demonstrate that LDS's, in fact, have less power over instructors today than they once might have. There are simply too many ways to get yourself heard ... and potential students are WAY smarter than most instructors and dive shops might want to give them credit for.

BTW ... a lot of my students found me on ScubaBoard ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rstofer]

It is the divers that run and own the LDS. Commerce has taken control in many (but not all) locations. If you took the LDS out of the picture, that wouldn't bother me or very many Instructors at all. It would be just like it was in the 60's. Training was available and so were the equipment manufacturers. Instructors would do what I did; put-up posters at supermarkets, advertise in the newspaper and use their personal networking to get students (with the Internet, it would be even easier).

And how many instructors would such a model support? How many manufacturers would be in the game? The old days are gone, get over it. This is a business, not a hobby!

I don't care whether old time divers respect PADI or not. I took my training with NAUI, I'm very happy with it. Sure, I prefer NAUI but I understand why they are a bit player. It's hard for a non-profit to compete with a for-profit. But, geez, these guys don't even try! Ever been to their web site?

If you could filter the eventual divers from the tourists, your model would work. For about 10% of the number trained with the existing system. I would even agree that this method is to be preferred. I still would like to see my PADI certified grandson take the LA County course. Maybe I can work that out some day.

You can wish in one hand and train in the other. See which turns out better divers. The program is what it is and it isn't going to get any better.

So make it better by promoting more training, sooner. Not complaining about how good it used to be and how bad it is today.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

... but if you teach them decent buoyancy skills in OW, all of that rigamarole is completely unnecessary.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree but you would also have to include Nav and S&R plus a bit of Rescue before even approaching the old NAUI program. So, basically, you would be back at a 40 hour program. No reason not to do it but the agencies aren't going to mandate it. They exist to feed resorts.

I'm glad that many instructors take it upon themselves to teach to higher standards. That's a good thing. But what we're complaining about, in the end, is the instructors that don't. Every instructor could do a more thorough course. But unless it is written down, not all do.

So, why don't all the SB instructors just arbitrarily decide that they will teach a 40 hour program regardless of the standards? Let's see how it works out... Obviously there are highly motivated students - yours, among others. But I fear you are working with just the top few percent of new divers. The masses just want to give diving a try. As long as it doesn't take too long.

Richard

 

[DCBC]

The old days are gone, get over it. This is a business, not a hobby!

That depends upon ones perspective; it's a business for the minority and a hobby for the majority. Perhaps you can get around to answering my question: how is it that you're so convinced that you're right in your assumptions?

...You can wish in one hand and train in the other. See which turns out better divers. The program is what it is and it isn't going to get any better.
So make it better by promoting more training, sooner. Not complaining about how good it used to be and how bad it is today.

You're talking to the wrong guy. It's an Instructor's moral responsibility to turn-out competent divers and not to certify them until they can meet the standards. Do you think I'm wrong? If not, what are you going on about?

 

[john1bl]

I think the real question here is that amount of training required to dive. From what I have read here, a person should not even THINK about having a reg in there mouth anywhere closer that a mile from any body of water unless they have had at least GUE-F or SAR training or military equivalent!!! The "old" training was out of the military and the people were not diving!! They were clearing beaches planting explosives ETC. The diving was how they got there,and not there mission. The training was taught with task loading so that the diving would not be the only thing that are doing. In SAR and cave Diving your are not diving primarily you are searching or caving. The diving is just the mode of transport and thus has to be second nature in its safe execution. Most of the people who dive, do it for and experience on vacation and might not ever breath from a reg again, and all they are doing is diving. I see a lot of instructor posting here and when your are with a class underwater you and teaching and not diving primarily. So I ask the question how much dose one really need the know if one is diving primarily(Not teaching,searching,or blowing stuff up)???????

 

[InTheDrink]

I think the real question here is that amount of training required to dive. From what I have read here, a person should not even THINK about having a reg in there mouth anywhere closer that a mile from any body of water unless they have had at least GUE-F or SAR training or military equivalent!!! The "old" training was out of the military and the people were not diving!! They were clearing beaches planting explosives ETC. The diving was how they got there,and not there mission. The training was taught with task loading so that the diving would not be the only thing that are doing. In SAR and cave Diving your are not diving primarily you are searching or caving. The diving is just the mode of transport and thus has to be second nature in its safe execution. Most of the people who dive, do it for and experience on vacation and might not ever breath from a reg again, and all they are doing is diving. I see a lot of instructor posting here and when your are with a class underwater you and teaching and not diving primarily. So I ask the question how much dose one really need the know if one is diving primarily(Not teaching,searching,or blowing stuff up)???????

I've seen quite a number of dives that were it not for luck or an attentive DM (read babysitter) an accident would have ensued. OW 4 days is not enough to learn the new motor skills. Ergo you are relying that you don't have a problem while you get more experience as many will not have the skills to deal with.

In terms of instructors and varying quality instruction. Sadly price seems to be king for most people so the cheapest deal is what sells. That frequently involves degradation of service. This applies to pretty much all areas of commerce. It's hard to blame this practise though as most instructors I know have 2 jobs at least. It's not a job to get wealthy from as far as I can see. Sure there are exceptions.

Bottom line for me though - even the much sneered at PADI OW qualification, IMHO, the skills outlined, if *mastered*
would make one a reasonable or good diver. The problem isn't the curriculum/content, it's the time allowed to the course. Like I say, IMHO.
J

 

[sabbath999]

It IS easier.

I teach out of my house ... have no affiliation whatsoever with any dive shop ... and yet I was teaching so much I had to take some time off to prevent burn-out.

Forgive me if the borders on a hijack, but how do you work this equipment-wise... since most students don't have things like BDC's, tanks, weights, wetsuits, etc.

Do you keep a supply yourself in the different sizes?