Too much current and a negligent dive master??

[DandyDon]

Let's work thru this, okay...

I'm not a great typist or writer so, if I inferred fault lay with the divemaster let me correct that. Indeed, I think the safety protocols worked very well that day. Since I'm not an accomplished diver I merely sought some insight into proper protocol, and, hopefully, to learn from this experience.

Well, I think you suggested "fault...with the divemaster" in your headline: "...negligent dive master??"

Whether going off the bow is "normal" or not, I can't say. The fact remains that is what we did; if you question this procedure, I suggest the answer will come from Amoray Divers directly.

Okay, the "bow" is the front/ pointed end; could you be confused over nautical terms? I went out with Amy Slate's boat a couple of times, and I believe it's a Catamaran, with stern/rear end entries being their practice, with existing the water done midship? Does that sound like it? Or were you leaving the boat along the side? I don't think they have a gate on the bow...?

Okay, a couple of things; the boat did put out lines prior to anyone getting in the water. When Lynn went in, she missed the mooring line and could not reach any of the other lines.

So there were additional lines? Here's my understanding of the names given those lines...

"Mooring Line" - the one that goes down to a wreck or permanent anchor of somesort; also the one the boat moors to, hooks onto.

"Current Line" or "Drift Line" that drifts behind the boat, often with a float on the end, so divers can grab it if down wind/current...?

"Tag Line" or "Granny Line" - the one that leads from the stern/back forward to the bow/front and on to the Mooring Ball...?


Could it be that she went off of the side gate, or stern, and missed that line? If so, that's Diver's Error to me...

Glad they took care of y'all okay.


But this was uncalled for...!!

One piece of advice for you; try getting over yourself long enough to realize that we are all adults here and arrogant, self absorbed, pontificating know it all’s tend to be dismissed.

If you'll look at Reefraff's Profile, training, and accomplishments, and compare it to your C-Card and what did you say - 30 dives, you're lucky he's not billing you!

 

[pbr]

Let's work thru this, okay...




Well, I think you suggested "fault...with the divemaster" in your headline: "...negligent dive master??"




Okay, the "bow" is the front/ pointed end; could you be confused over nautical terms? I went out with Amy Slate's boat a couple of times, and I believe it's a Catamaran, with stern/rear end entries being their practice, with existing the water done midship? Does that sound like it? Or were you leaving the boat along the side? I don't think they have a gate on the bow...?




So there were additional lines? Here's my understanding of the names given those lines...

"Mooring Line" - the one that goes down to a wreck or permanent anchor of somesort; also the one the boat moors to, hooks onto.

"Current Line" or "Drift Line" that drifts behind the boat, often with a float on the end, so divers can grab it if down wind/current...?

"Tag Line" or "Granny Line" - the one that leads from the stern/back forward to the bow/front and on to the Mooring Ball...?


Could it be that she went off of the side gate, or stern, and missed that line? If so, that's Diver's Error to me...

Glad they took care of y'all okay.

Hi Dandy Don,

Sorry for the confusion and no, despite my poorly worded title, I did not mean to infer blame on the DM. As I said earlier, I believe safety protocols worked pretty well that day.

With all due respect, we went off the bow (front of the boat). We were asked to grab the mooring line (the line that took us down to the hull of the SP). The boat had put out other lines, although I do know the terms for these lines.

The on board DM swam out to Lynn with a line with which she pulled herself to the boat.

Does this help?

 

[Scubaguy62]

The SG is a tough dive. I can't tell you why, but from the first time I dove it (two weeks after its sinking) it has become a progressively more difficult dive, probably due to the fact that it's so popular and it's usually very crowded both top side and under. Back then it only had 4 mooring buoys on it. I haven't been to it in a while, but I remember 6 buoys the last time. If two more have been added, all the more reasons to make it a crowded environment.

I can vouch for what my better half, scbababe said about the best season to dive the wreck. Usually during that time is when we have flatter seas and less currents, but the convective activity is a little more prominent, so a morning dive is more in order than an afternoon dive.

IMHO, to go off the boat at the bow and try to grab the mooring line is not at all safe, especially in high swells, given the angle between the boat and the line. Better to go off the stern, grab the current line, then the tag line and pull yourself to the mooring line.

 

[jagfish]

Lots a great readoing on this thread...

Regarding diver lever appropropriate for the SG...
The only time I have been on that wreck was a couple summers ago, doing my AOW. It was by our instructor's suggestion for our AOW deep dive. Everyone on the dive had less than 25 dives. It was quite awonderful expereince. Amazing how the barracuda there line up like steps in a ladder...

We went on a weekday, so no other boat traffic, and the currents were quite mild.
Is it possible that the currents mainly kick up in the winter/spring?

Anyway, I only raise this point to question whether this dive is considered too demanding for inexpereinced divers year round. And, if the currents are occasional or seasonal, perhaps divers of less experience could expect to dive there with a DM for navigation. I do remember hearing on the dive briefing that coming up the wrong mooring is a common occurrence.

Last, seas of 3 to 5 sound kinda big to me. In my experience, can be a bit tough getting back on the boat if it gets more toward the "5" end of that scale.

JAG

 

[pbr]

Lots a great readoing on this thread...

Regarding diver lever appropropriate for the SG...
The only time I have been on that wreck was a couple summers ago, doing my AOW. It was by our instructor's suggestion for our AOW deep dive. Everyone on the dive had less than 25 dives. It was quite awonderful expereince. Amazing how the barracuda there line up like steps in a ladder...

We went on a weekday, so no other boat traffic, and the currents were quite mild.
Is it possible that the currents mainly kick up in the winter/spring?

Anyway, I only raise this point to question whether this dive is considered too demanding for inexpereinced divers year round. And, if the currents are occasional or seasonal, perhaps divers of less experience could expect to dive there with a DM for navigation. I do remember hearing on the dive briefing that coming up the wrong mooring is a common occurrence.

Last, seas of 3 to 5 sound kinda big to me. In my experience, can be a bit tough getting back on the boat if it gets more toward the "5" end of that scale.

JAG

Hi Jag,

In all the confusion, I almost forgot how tough getting back on the boat was! Once up, we had to transfer from the mooring line to a line off the side of the boat and pull ourselves to the ladder. Grabbing the ladder was was tricky because if you held on too tight the swells would beat you to death! Most of us took our fins off before we got to the ladder because we didn't want to hang off the ladder any longer than we had to. Lastly, you had to time your ladder climb right after a swell passed giving you the best chance of getting up without being slammed.

I agree with some of the post's regarding a bow entrance. With the swells coming in, you had to time your giant stride at either the top or the bottom of a swell. Otherwise, it looked like you were jumping off of a building! In future trips, I plan to enter from the stern if at all possible.

As an aside, we dove with Kelly's (right next door to Amoray) the day before the SG dive where we entered and exited the water from the stern.

Thanks for all the helpfull comments. I hope to dive the SG again when it's a little calmer!

 

[DandyDon]

I still find it odd that Amy's would have you go off the bow, jumping for the mooring ball & down line. But I wasn't there. If they had the other lines out, which sounds appropriate, why not direct divers to them - especially the newer ones.

It does seem that some operators ae willing to take anyone to the Grove. In talking with a potentional buddy for that dive, I wanted to be sure he either had AOW or 50+ ocean dives, plus a willingness to take leadership from someone who'd done the dive before. Kelly's told me that they have the same requirements for the Grove, but Amy's will take an OW...?

Is it possible that the currents mainly kick up in the winter/spring?

I believe that current is the Gulf Steam that runs all the time, and wanders in at times. Just stay away from Keys Wrecks if you can't handle currents.

Anyway, I only raise this point to question whether this dive is considered too demanding for inexpereinced divers year round. And, if the currents are occasional or seasonal, perhaps divers of less experience could expect to dive there with a DM for navigation. I do remember hearing on the dive briefing that coming up the wrong mooring is a common occurrence.

Sure - hire one each and hold hands.

Last, seas of 3 to 5 sound kinda big to me. In my experience, can be a bit tough getting back on the boat if it gets more toward the "5" end of that scale.

Get on the drift line, fins off, straps around wrist, don't appraoch until clear, BC emtpy in case the boat jumps on you, climb like hell and clear the way... :11:

 

[jagfish]

Hi Don
While I appreciate your comments, I'm not sure I was quoted in the context and spirit I had intended:

"...perhaps divers of less experience could expect to dive there with a DM for navigation. I do remember hearing on the dive briefing that coming up the wrong mooring is a common occurrence. "

You had underlined, "could expect to dive there with a DM" with your comment, about hiring one each to hold hands. I feel you took that out of contect by not underlining the "for navigation" section.

My comment reflected the fact that I had originally dove there as a group of 3 all with less than 25 dives and the main aid from our instructor was as a guide. And once again, it was his suggestoin to bring us there. We were warned that it might be difficult for the boat to pick us up if we came up the wrong buoy and another boat had come along and hitched up to that moor. I think it is quite a common role for DMs to serve as a guide in new diving environments, isn't it? That was the extent of the role I was referring to. Not "holding hands" as you comically suggested.

Thanks also for your input on how to get out of water in high seas. While I wasn't actually soliciting a "how to", I was bringing attention to the fact that aside from the current, the other most potentially hazardous condition was the relatively high seas. I've seen a few bonked heads on rough boat exits, even from rather experienced divers.

Still rather new to the board and I always appreciate and enjoy reading your posts, Don...

JAG

 

[DandyDon]

Hey Jag -

Sorry if I was a little gruff there. I just don't think that OWs with less than maybe 50 ocean dives have any business on The Grove. I know that they wanted it to be available even to snorkelers, but they were to sink it elsewhere. Maybe it would have been an easier dive in the selected spot, but it sank prematurely. Now, I hear stories of OWs being taken there, and their problems. :11:

Your instructor is certainly more qualified than I to plan the dive, and he knew you divers personally, so I'm sure your experience was better planned than many others. My crack at taking a DM each by the hand was along other lines, so I guess you're right, my out of context remarks were a little excessive. Sorry about that, and thanks for your input on this discussion...

don

 

[jagfish]

A gentleman and a scholar as always...

JAG

 

[greyface]

A safe practice is to always maintain contact with the tag line while entering the water, and making your way to the mooring line. I was taught to hold (or pinch) the tag line with the inside of your elbow (between bicep & forearm) while sitting on the gunnel. Support mask & reg. with other hand, and roll off. A safe practice in stiff currents. You'd have to throw me off of a bow in sporty seas! IMHO, the DMs had it right. Good thread!