Training for Diver Stress

[Uncle Pug]

Inducing stress should not be the goal of training... it is not even a means to achieve a goal.

The introduction of failures in a controlled training evironment is not done to induce stress (though it might) but rather to provide the opportunity to learn problem solving.

In a GUE Tech class you don't have two guys ganging up on one... pulling pranks with out rhyme nor reason...

You don't even find assistants producing or inducing problems for a buddy pair... the assistants are there to monitor and provide safety back up... & the videographer is there to catch it all on tape.

Even the GUE instructor is not going to be knocking regulators out of students mouths... though for specific scenarios he might remove a mask, or two, or three (yes, Shane & I lost three masks to Andrew... one right after the other.)

Andrew G. is a master at this. He follows you unseen as you go about executing your dive plan and when he sees the potential for a failure that you have created he will come in and give you what is needed to learn the lesson at hand.

Swim away without being aware that your buddy is falling behind and Andrew will grab your buddy and signal for him to stop... letting you wander off (both of you still observed by the assistants)... if you persist... he may find you (he is fast) and give you the signal that you are OOA... at which point you turn around and find that your buddy has been left behind and....

Andrew does not create the situations... you create them. He is careful to do this in shallow water and can deal with situations that get out of hand. He is very good at what he does.

But the idea of practicing *stress inducing failures* by stripping off masks and taking away regulators... especially when done by those who could not manage a situation gone sideways... is a very bad idea... perhaps one of the worse ideas ever.

What would you do if that person you stressed by ripping off their mask, taking out their regulator, turning off their tank valve and dumping their BC ended up drowning?

What would the lawyers of your victim's family do to you and your family?

 

[chrispete]

First of all, many assumptions are being made here based on very little info:

The lake - This was not a 50-60f dive, the deepest point in this lake is 21f, and my computer calc'd our average depth as 16f. The water temp was 88 degrees. There is little to no debris on the bottom and is a nice, easy dive site.

two guys ganging up on one... pulling pranks with out rhyme nor reason..

The reason to have 2x people there was for the added safety factor (TXDD and I were a buddy team, flanking and a bit behind CD at all times.) We were not randomly jumping CD, rather, we would communicate the type of failure that we wanted to induce, and then do our seperate parts. Triple failures were usually spaced (i.e. mask flooded, while purge is in progress shut off tank valve, and then while valve turn-up was in progress, bump some air into his BC.) No two failures were ever done to life support at the same time (i.e. pulling reg and turning off 1st stage at the same time was not done or even contemplated.)

especially when done by those who could not manage a situation gone sideways...

This is a gross generalization, though I will grant that I'm still a novice diver with only 42 dives under my belt in the past 3 months, but a) I'm not some kind of idiot cretin and TXDD isn't either, b) I for one made sure that I had my octo hose ringed with at least a finger anytime it was necessary, c) we always stayed at our stations, usually even with or a head's length in front of CD when a failure was in progress - he knew exactly where we were should he have needed us to initiate a bailout, and d) we briefed pre-dive what the limitations on situations were, what the emergency plans were, and most importantly what the goal of the dive was.

The goals of the dive were:

To practice self-rescue - in an adverse situation where one or both divers face an emergency, being able to stabalize your own situation before helping the other person would seem to me to be a necessity. If you are not comfortable with pulling yourself out of a failure and can't do it, you have exactly a 0% chance of helping your buddy if they are in trouble as well.

To practice bouancy - CD wanted to make sure that he was able to hold trim while dealing with the situations that we presented. In his line of diving (cave) this would again seem to me to be essential for providing the best possible outcome of a real emercency.

To practice navigation - CD wanted to work on holding a true line while being task loaded.


Finished with the rebuttals, now to try and steer this thread into a more constructive direction. Supervised practice to the point of being 100% comfortable and sharp in these skills is not practical. What would you guys recommend for continued practice of these situations that would help keep skill levels sharp while maintaining a high level of safety?

(UP, thanks for the description of the DIRF class methodology, now I actually understand the what it's basically about, and as far as the land-shark argument, I do have to grant that one)

 

[Uncle Pug]

... you miss what my post was about.

We have a lot of folk reading this thread... and some might think that the stress drill as first presented (and then amplified by our other distiguished guests) is a good idea... they might even go out and try something like it themselves... and somebody might get killed for no good reason Chris.

So you feel a need to defend what you guys were doing... fine... get some more facts out on the table... fine... but I disagree that what you guys were doing... (even after the explaination)... was a good idea. Perhaps I could understand if you had said that you are trained and skilled in this kind of instruction... but I'll bet you aren't.... if I am wrong I apologize.

So you want to steer this thread into a more constructive direction?

Supervised practice to the point of being 100% comfortable and sharp in these skills is not practical.

I'll let CD talk to you about this after he takes his GUE Tech 1...

In the meantime the most constructive advise I have (not just for you... but for everyone reading this thread) is to take a GUE class so you can see first hand the methodology that works AND is safe.

 

[Ron Brandt]

I did stuff like that 22 years ago when I did my NAUI and ACUC training.

One other kind of stress training is to become (name an agency) scuba instructor. A different kind of stress.

I believe the best way to deal with stress underwater is to stay in top physical comdition .

Ron

 

[Cave Diver]

First of all, let me clear something up. Perhaps the word 'stress' was the wrong word to use for the description of this post. Perhaps 'skill training' would have been a better phrase.

I do NOT advocate divers doing the practice, training, skills or whatever you wish to call it that we did. I am aware however (and as several who have posted admit) that there are divers that do this type of 'training' and I wanted to get an idea of who was doing what.

This training was also not done as an anticipation of what I would get during the GUE class. The sole purpose of this exercise from my perspective was to make sure that regardless of what situation I was dealing with I was able to keep my position in the water under control.

UP, I agree 100% that under normal circumstances a buddy wouldnt be the cause of a problem like this, and would instead be an invaluable help. I also advocate buddy awareness and I have NEVER had my mask or regulator knocked loose by anyone I was diving with. Why? Because I do my best to stay aware of where they are in relation to me at all times, ESPECIALLY when we are in close proximity or low visibility.

However, there could be any number of other causes for a mask to get knocked loose (current, etc.) and I would like to make sure that I am comfortable with skills such as those in the event that it ever did happen. If I were to loose a mask under less favorable conditions I would be much better prepared to deal with it because of the practice that I had.

As far as these situations, Yes I have practiced these before. They were part of my cave training. The instructor would have me turn the valve on left post off, breathe till that reg was out of air, switch to backup, turn left post on, turn right post off, breathe till backup was out of air, switch back to primary, turn right post back on. And I was diving doubles in our little 20' mudpuddle and I did get practice in turning both tanks on and off several times thanks to CP and TDD. I also had to follow a line with no mask on. So these were not 'new' skills to me. Rather they were just allowing me to keep up practice on training I already had in the event I ever needed it.

I was comfortable with them doing these things to me, but this thread was not about that. My question was does anyone else do this, and if so to what extent.

If anyone does not feel capable of handling a mask off during a dive or feel comfortable with the idea of running out of air, maybe they shouldnt be diving in the first place. And even if they are comfortable with it themselves, they still should be practicing it without reliable and competent buddies. I happened to have had not one, but two and I would do the same dive again anytime.

 

[Ghost.Diver]

Good divers are always learning,
as one SCUBA publication points out. I would think that most divers would think this way also. CD does and that is why we were doing what we were. Most everyone can remember back to there open water checkout dives when we were told my the instructor that are air would be shut off, and so it was. Then we were told to flood/remove our mask and put it back on. And we did. Like I said, most of us can remember this tasks way back when. CD doesnt like to sit and wait. He is always learning, never wanting to let his skills get lax. That is one reason he is taking the DIRF class, to hone his skills.

This was a controlled excercise in "real world" problems and to make sure that it could be handled without problems. I've known CD for years now and one thing I know is that if he asks a question about something, he generally knows the answer already. If he did not feel he could handle this, he never would have asked. The first time we dd this, it was on one of the training platforms in the same lake. I was there as well as another member of our team, who is an instructor.

A couple things about the three of us involved in this this. First off, when we arrived at the lake, there were two other divers there who were leaving. So, there was not a possibility of other divers being involved. CD and myself got certified together, went through Advanced, EANx and Rescue together. He then got Cave certified and now he is working towards DM certification. Even though Chris is fairly new, he has exceptional skills and control.

As Chris stated, at anytime part of CD's life support was intruppted, either he or I was right at hand with our Octo or CD's reg. It was the same situation as if diving with your buddy and your regulator got snagged, or a roll off in an overhead enviroment, or having your mask knocked off. So, yes we might have been tempting fate, playing with fire, etc but any of the things that we did could have happened in a real world situation. I know that everyone doesnt agree with what we were doing and there is no justificaiton to satisfy them but we really dont need there approval.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

 

[Uncle Pug]

OK... you guys win.
Sleep well.

 

[KZMAN]

Be Realistic! Could this really happen, or are we just loading?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
... you miss what my post was about.

We have a lot of folk reading this thread... and some might think that the stress drill as first presented (and then amplified by our other distiguished guests) is a good idea... they might even go out and try something like it themselves... and somebody might get killed for no good reason Chris.

I guess I would be one who amplified the presentation. I attempted a recovery though.

 

[Cave Diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
OK... you guys win.
Sleep well.

UP,

It is not about winning. It is about diving and having fun. I reworded the original post in a way that I hope more effectively communicates my intent, and I (hopefully) made it clear that this is not something I advocate and should not be done if without first having proper training. Obviously some people are more comfortable in the water than others and are better able to deal with things that may happen.

If losing a mask at depth doesnt cause me undue stress or panic, then I am less likely to lose my buddy while dealing with the mask problem and end up with cascading problems that may be unmanageable.

Again, it was just a question about whether anyone else does anything to keep their skills sharp and if so, what do they do?