Undercurrent--"Why Divers Die"

[MXGratefulDiver]

Since you read the article you know that the quote was from Undercurrent. On the DAN website if you search for Obesity you will find the information highlighted in the 2004 report (the same info you posted earlier in the thread). DAN clearly reports the obesity finding as an issue. I do not know if the reporter who wrote the Undercurrent article had separate discussions with DAN rep, clearly they spoke with experts in Australia about the issue.

Sorry, no pictures in Undercurrent.

Well, I did find this on the DAN website ...

There is no strong body of evidence to suggest that overweight individuals have a greater risk of DCI or that they suffer more dive-related injuries that divers who are within 10 percent of their ideal body weight. Obesity by itself does not restrict diving.

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/faq/faq.asp?faqid=144

... if taken out of context, it could be interpreted to mean something that I'm sure the author never intended as well ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cacia]

could imply that divers AS A POPULATION, may not be the sharpest crayons in the box.

Who us?...how can you say that? lol

It does cross one's mind from time to time.

 

[in_cavediver]

On further reflection and review of DAN reports I would also say that fitness and health may be an even greater risk for the experienced diver. In stories of experienced divers it seems that health problems (primarily heart disease) kill experienced divers who, had they been healthy, would have survived their situation.

You know, finally something we agree on. If you take dive skill, dive planning and risk management issues out of the equation (and say they are done correctly and appropriately for all parties), I'd be very willing to state less fit divers are more at risk of incident.

The problem here is what level of added risk is that. Is it significant or is it like nitrox on air tables? I don't think there is enough data to seperate it from the variance in random chance to conclusively prove it for diving specifically. Extrapololation to other studies done with regard to exertion etc should suffice though. It might be interesting to see what the instaneanous probability of heart attack is based on BMI/Fitness etc to see how wieght affects the rates. You could even extropolate that risk over a 1 hour timeframe to get the 'added' risk exposure.

Most of the DAN data has principal causes in diver error, improper responses, and lacking skills (bouyancy control). That doesn't leave many places to find the all else equal statistics. (although there are some such as heart attack on the boat etc).

 

[in_cavediver]

Ok, just so everyone is on the same page, I just got my latest copy of Undercurrent yesterday, and it contains the third (and last) part of this series.

The series is not intended to show the ONE reason why divers die, or even the MOST LIKELY reason. More simplistically (it's not a peer reviewed scientific publication, ok?), someone has scanned the DAN data of diving fatalities, and is pointing out what are basically some thoughts that come to mind when reviewing that data.

The third, and final, part is subtitled "Bad Decisions". It covers cases where untrained divers were found dead in caves, people who ascended too quickly (intentionally and unintentionally), and other similar cases. The point they make in this article is essentially, these people had choices, and they made the wrong ones. You can say bad training, bad habits, bad judgement, whatever, they don't make those conclusions for you.

What I got out of these articles wasn't that someone was deigning to tell me what would likely kill me while diving, but instead they were presenting things THAT I HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER that I should be thinking about before I hit the water.

Fitness was simply one aspect. And, by this thread, the article got people thinking about it. For good or for bad (I think good). Anectdotally, it doesn't appear that divers, AS A POPULATION, are the healthiest or fittest atheletes. Since we can control that, maybe people should think about it a bit more, get some facts, talk to our doctor or nutritionist, exercise more, eat more fruit, whatever. Something.

The third article, if you wanted to take it in the same "it's wrong, throw it away" attitude that some in this thread have taken, could imply that divers AS A POPULATION, may not be the sharpest crayons in the box. We make bad decisions when we should (and usually do) know better. I know I'm not stupid (though few will vouch for that), the people who died untrained in a cave probably would have said the same thing. But, there they were. So, I'm going to think about this article too. I'm not going to take the attitude of "hey, I don't make bad decisions, can't happen to me".

It's food for thought, nothing more. I think it's a great series, well presented, and somewhat enlightening.

This is actually interesting. I went back and looked through my Encyclopedia of Technical Diving and its list of issues for divers. Fitness was #10. Topping the list were subjects such as Good Training, Recent Dive Expierence, Good Basic Dive Skills, Proper Gas Management, Proper Team/Buddy Planning etc. Of all the subject mentioned, fitness is the hardest to address, not the easiest and has the lessor impact on your safety. (to a point, that is)

Interesting how the same article can be presented as 'The Reason' and then be described as a 'collection of issues you can manage'. Its sounds to me like the last article was attempting to tackle on of the big risk factors - IE, undertraining of divers.

 

[OHGoDive]

This is actually interesting. I went back and looked through my Encyclopedia of Technical Diving and its list of issues for divers. Fitness was #10. Topping the list were subjects such as Good Training, Recent Dive Expierence, Good Basic Dive Skills, Proper Gas Management, Proper Team/Buddy Planning etc. Of all the subject mentioned, fitness is the hardest to address, not the easiest and has the lessor impact on your safety. (to a point, that is)

Well, I guess that my take on fitness is that if people are going to spend countless hours working on the other 9 reasons (because they're easier, have more impact on safety, whatever) that it's disingenuous to ignore fitness. I don't think you can rank any of the subjects you listed and say any one is more important than another.

They all need to be considered, and you can't just ignore or rationalize away the importance of one of them (like fitness) because it's a touchy/sensitive subject to some people.

Interesting how the same article can be presented as 'The Reason' and then be described as a 'collection of issues you can manage'. Its sounds to me like the last article was attempting to tackle on of the big risk factors - IE, undertraining of divers.

I think the article presented itself as "The Reasons". I think the article as a whole was attempting to tackle all of the risk factors, they didn't seem to prioritize them in any way.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

They all need to be considered, and you can't just ignore or rationalize away the importance of one of them (like fitness) because it's a touchy/sensitive subject to some people.

I think that's a misrepresentation of what people were objecting to.

No one suggested that fitness should be ignored or rationalized away ... some of us objected to the premise that obesity is the leading cause of diver death, and pointed out that the data referenced in the article does not support that premise.

The author made a leap of faith between what the article said and what the data supported.

Furthermore, according to the OP, fitness wasn't the issue ... obesity was. The two are related, but not synonymous.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

THink of it this way:

If I only have, say, four hours with you ... what can I do that will have the geatest effect on reducing you diving risk? The answer is surely not conditioning.

 

[OHGoDive]

No, I understand what the original discussion was about. I was merely addressing the listing in the message that I quoted, and that used the word fitness.

I also understand that there are many important skills needed to be a safe diver.

However, it just seemed that, to some extent, some of the people who were posting here were trying to completely eliminate the idea that obesity, or even fitness, were issues that could contribute to problems while diving.

It was generalized away, along the lines of, sure, I'm obese, but I'm better at all of these skills than you are, so, it's not important/relevant to my diving. [Ok, I'm paraphrasing, but, I'm not convinced that I'm too far off].

I think that generalization is wrong.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However, it just seemed that, to some extent, some of the people who were posting here were trying to completely eliminate the idea that obesity, or even fitness, were issues that could contribute to problems while diving.

It was generalized away, along the lines of, sure, I'm obese, but I'm better at all of these skills than you are, so, it's not important/relevant to my diving. [Ok, I'm paraphrasing, but, I'm not convinced that I'm too far off].

Well, as one of the posters on "that" side of the discussion, I neither said nor implied any such thing ... and I didn't notice anyone else doing so either.

I think that generalization is wrong.

I think most generalizations on both sides of this discussion are wrong ... that's about normal for Internet conversations ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

No, I understand what the original discussion was about. I was merely addressing the listing in the message that I quoted, and that used the word fitness.

I also understand that there are many important skills needed to be a safe diver.

However, it just seemed that, to some extent, some of the people who were posting here were trying to completely eliminate the idea that obesity, or even fitness, were issues that could contribute to problems while diving.

It was generalized away, along the lines of, sure, I'm obese, but I'm better at all of these skills than you are, so, it's not important/relevant to my diving. [Ok, I'm paraphrasing, but, I'm not convinced that I'm too far off].

I think that generalization is wrong.

Absolutely, just trying to keep things in perspective. Diving is a sport that can be participated in with only a modest fitness level, but all things being equal (which they never are) the more fit, the better.