Watson Murder Case - Discussion

[Foxfish]

From what I can tell from the reports, (1) we have not yet heard anything that is new and incriminating, and (2) what we have heard is not nearly as incriminating as what we had expected to hear.

As far as the timeline and whether Dr. Stutz could have seen what he claims to have seen, I can't tell if the defense is better served by showing he could not have seen it or by showing that he did see it, but did not see acts that could have resulted in Tina being incapacitated.

Maybe McFadyen could argue his case from both perspectives. ie show using his timeline he seriously doubts that Stutz saw what he claimed and also show that even if he did, that testimony does not impugn Gabe. How much time do they have?

If McFadyen is correct about the timeline, it destroys Stutz' testimony. The difficulty will be convincing the jury that this is the case as they will need an in depth understanding of how it was constructed. It is one thing sitting at home taking it in but I'd imagine quite another in a jury situation.That said, I thought McFadyen did a good job of explaining how he derived his time line and the way it was presented graphically.

Have a look at the testimony by Stutz regarding the movement of Tina's arms and legs at the time that Gabe swam to Tina.

Arms and legs flailing “she wasn’t like thrashing”

“disorganised” and “moving flapping slowly up and down”

“flaying basically, and she was moving her arms, not unpurposely, and her legs similarly”

“thrashing her arms and legs”

And finally in his testimony to the American courts:

Stutz said he was in the water with about three dozen other divers when he looked down and saw Tina Watson floating on her back with her arms extended, moving slowly in the water.

"I was close enough to see her face," said Stutz. The woman seemed distressed but wasn't thrashing and moved like she "had no energy," he said.

Read more: Honeymoon death: Key witness takes stand

Take your pick. We have everything from slow movements that lack energy in this latest testimony to Tina thrashing her arms and legs.

Dictionary definition of flail:

1. To beat or strike with or as if with a flail: flailed our horses with the reins.

2. To wave or swing vigorously; thrash: flailed my arms to get their attention.

3. To thresh using a flail.

v.intr.1. To move vigorously or erratically; thrash about: arms flailing helplessly in the water.

2. To strike or lash out violently: boxers flailing at each other in the ring.
3. To thresh grain.

flailing - definition of flailing by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Question: When is a flail not a flail. Answer: When the term is used by Stutz.



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[Divedoggie]

Wow. Messy.

I covered the following story in a past post, but it is worth mentioning again.

While teaching an advanced open water class, I saw a diver (not from our group) descending fairly rapidly lying on her back with arms out in a position not unlike what we see in the final photo of Tina. I gave her the ok sign and she signaled ok back to me. The next thing I notice was her lying on her back on the bottom in 80 feet of water. I had the other instructor take our group to the surface, and I responded to the woman lying on the bottom. I had to fully inflate her BC to get her to even budge off the bottom, then as she started ascent, I dumped enough of her air to get her neutral. As we ascended together, I repeatedly handed her inflator hose to her and showed her what to do, she would signal ok, and then just drop it. Depending on her buoyancy, she would either start sinking or ascending with no effort to control herself. In the end I held her hand and controlled our ascent with both of our BCs. When I questioned her after exiting the water, she had very little recall of what happened and wasn't even really aware that she had ever been in trouble.
I am positive that she had passive panic, narrowed focus or tunnel vision, was overweighted, and was in big trouble. Her buddy never dropped below 20 feet and never attempted to assist her. Upon further questioning, I discovered that they were both Advanced Open Water divers!

All of the expert witnesses in the trial are testifying as to what a reasonable diver would do. They are blindly accepting that all training is adequate, and that if someone holds a card that says Advanced Open Water diver, or Rescue diver, that that diver should respond in a certain reasonable way.

I have also seen people breath water into their mouths by breathing around the mouthpiece...or not sealing their lips around the mouthpiece. So they spit out the reg thinking something is wrong with it. Sticking a safe second into their mouths doesn't work if they don't seal their lips around the mouthpiece. The only answer is to forcefully purge the reg into their mouths and start ascending.

Both of the above situations require a rescuer who has his/her wits and has confidence in their own skills.

 

[K_girl]

I don't understand why so many people are so willing to accept the panic argument in light of Watson's own statements. Watson said that Tina knocked his face mask askew and the reg out of his mouth. However, Watson does not panic and bolt to the surface. He manages to keep his head, get his reg back in his mouth and get his mask back on. This is the number one thing that would make a diver bolt to the surface. I've watched a TV show where they train navy seals and seen many of them fail because they could not stop themselves from panicking during an exercise where their mask and reg are dislodged purposefully by the trainer. So, Watson is quite the man under control (even more so than many navy seal trainees) when he is under the worst pressure a diver can face. So, he gets control and then thinks about how he doesn't want to leave Tina or she could be lost forever. For me, his statements mean that he is thinking this whole time in spite of the stressful situation he is in. He was convicted of manslaughter because of that.

 

[Divedoggie]

It is not unreasonable to think that Watson doesn't clearly remember the events of that day, so his story changed based on what he thought that he remembered.

It is not unreasonable to think that Tina had passive panic similar to the woman in the story above.

It is not unreasonable to think that Watson tried to help her and just didn't have the ability to do it.

Why would he attempt to kill her on such a busy dive sight, with so many potential witnesses around?

If he was only after money and self interest and loved diving so much, why would he attempt to kill her on the very first dive? Why not milk the trip to Australia as much as possible and kill her on the 12th dive, and then run home for the insurance money?

 

[Divedoggie]

Based on Stutz most recent testimony. Stutz saw Watson make contact with Tina, putting his arms under hers, after (less than 30 seconds Watson ascends as Tina sinks...
*Watson noticed that she was negative, and tried to lift her by placing his arms under hers.
*She dislodges his mask, and he lets go to clear the mask. Taking a big breath to clear it, he becomes positive and starts ascending. Meanwhile Tina is dropping away.
*Watson clears his mask and notices how far she has dropped below him. He is wracked with indecision and tries to figure out what to do.
*Having his mask dislodged unnerved him and he fears making contact again. He knows from his Rescue training that a bad rescue attempt could result in 2 victims, so he heads to the surface and begins screaming for help.
*This explains why he took so long to get to the surface.

He is back on the boat filled with self loathing, self pity, guilt, helplessness, cowardice, etc. This explains his behavior on the boat.

There is an answer to every point that the prosecutors are trying to make. I will be really suprised if the prosecution will convince the judge that there is enough evidence for the trial to go to the jury.

 

[K_girl]

Hmmm.. I don't believe Stutz saw Watson recovering his mask or his regulator. That is one of the places where Stutz' testimony and Watson's testimony do not match. Stutz sees Watson swim up to Tina, he had his arms under her. He thought Watson was trying to rescue her, did not make any mention that Watson appeared to be in any trouble himself. Stutz definitely noticed that Tina was in trouble. He sees Watson let go of Tina and swim to the surface. However, Watson says after he adjusts his mask and reg, Tina is sinking and he starts to kick down after her, pretty hard from his description. Stutz does not describe Watson kicking down after her. He only describes Watson letting her go and swimming away from her.

The two different event timelines don't match.

 

[alohagal]

Apparently Doug Milsap...Ken Snyders friend was on the stand today. He is the other diver who said "bull****" to Gabes explanation on the boat after the event. I am wondering when these conversations took place. Doug is a doctor as well. I am assuming he was the other doctor doing CPR on Tina. So, he must have had this conversation after an exhausting and disappointing CPR try.

I know I read in McFayden's blog that both Dr's conferred with each other after making the decision to pronounce her. They debriefed if you will.
From what I understand Kenneth spoke briefly with Doug about what Gabe was claiming about the incident prior to Doug speaking with Gabe.

 

[K_girl]

McFadyen questions whether or not the diver Stutz saw in distress was Tina. Here is a quote about Stutz' testimony:

"Later he tried to revive Tina, who he positively identified as the woman he saw in distress."

Source: Key witnesses take stand in dive murder trial of Gabe Watson | News.com.au

Another snippet from this article, that stresses the point I made above:

"Watson also denied ever touching Tina after she knocked off his mask."

*******

Testimony of Gabe Watson's dive buddy, Michael Moore, regarding Watson's training:

Gabe Watson 'could have pressed button to float Tina to surface' murder trial hears | News.com.au

This is some information we had not heard before. A portion of Michael Moore's testimony from that same article:

"Mr Moore also related an open water emergency at a depth of 28 metres when Watson cooly grabbed Mr Moore when he lost half of his weights, preventing possible injury."

 

[K_girl]

No. Dr. Milsap was on the Spoilsport with Ken Snyder when Watson came back to the boat while Tina was on the Jazz II being worked on by other people. Milsap and Snyder asked Watson where Tina was. Watson replied that she didn't come up (as though he didn't know what happened). Then they asked him what happened and he told them the story that she was too heavy and he had to let go of her. That's when Milsap got into Watson's face and told him he better come up with another story because that can't happen as you are basically weightless in water. Watson changed his story to Tina sinking too fast for him to catch-up to her and being unable to reach her. You may feel that Milsap is wrong and you can feel weight underwater, but the interesting point is that Watson changed his story.

 

[DandyDon]

If Gabe wanted to engineer a murder so that it looked like his greenhorn diver wife panicked, and he as a braggart & quarry trained but out of practice Rescue diver failed - he succeeded, but it would have been so stupid with the number of boats and experienced divers around, plus at least one physician he knew of.