What is clean enough?

[Mr.X]

Reasonable balance is difficult. I am happy that we have an EPA. Countries that bypass environmental measures threaten everyone else, while screwing up any chance that their kids might lead better lives. China, India and emerging nations come to mind. I've seen some very horrendous things in my travels.

While a naturally sunken ship might seen benign, there are always hidden dangers in there. It's toxic wasteland and if you go into the wrong areas (let's say penetration dive) you endanger yourself, and the local water around you. Who knows what these things are leeching out, or slowly adding to the water. While it may take more $$$ and time, I think being prudent about something that affects us and the critters is a good thing.

As per Sea Shepherds - they put their money where their mouth is. I may not agree with some of their methods, but they are genuine in their desire for better place for all. Again, different ends of the spectrum like Democrats and Republicans.

 

[Kim]

I may not agree with some of their methods

The end justifies the means huh?

Sorry....don't buy it. You start a fight and someone is always going to fight back. It takes too long to get the problem sorted then. Positions get too hard.

I'm perfectly at ease with organizations that work to solve problems that affect the planet, but extremists don't help anything.

As for this topic - did you ever hear of a diver going into a "wrong" area and exposing toxic waste? Did you ever hear of an intentional artificial reef created by sinking a ship that has already been cleaned as "best it can" causing problems? How come all the corals and fish etc love them so much if they're doing what you seem to be concerned about?

I think Bill has a good point - make the rings too hard to jump through and no-one will, so there'll be no more intentional sinkings. Who is going to win then? The oceans? The fish? Us?

You can only get to a middle ground if EVERYONE gets off their butt from where they're sitting now and starts walking. You can't expect the other side to come all the way to you......well you can......but it's never going to happen.

 

[Mr.X]

The end justifies the means huh?

Sorry....don't buy it. You start a fight and someone is always going to fight back. It takes too long to get the problem sorted then. Positions get too hard.

I'm perfectly at ease with organizations that work to solve problems that affect the planet, but extremists don't help anything.

As for this topic - did you ever hear of a diver going into a "wrong" area and exposing toxic waste? Did you ever hear of an intentional artificial reef created by sinking a ship that has already been cleaned as "best it can" causing problems? How come all the corals and fish etc love them so much if they're doing what you seem to be concerned about?

I think Bill has a good point - make the rings too hard to jump through and no-one will, so there'll be no more intentional sinkings. Who is going to win then? The oceans? The fish? Us?

You can only get to a middle ground if EVERYONE gets off their butt from where they're sitting now and starts walking. You can't expect the other side to come all the way to you......well you can......but it's never going to happen.

It all comes down to this Kim. What have you done lately in a substantive manner?

I've done environmental work inside of sunken ships (EPA/Coast Guard). Nasty stuff just sits and waits for the right time to kill everyone and everything. Ugly work, dangerous work. So, please don't blag on here.

 

[Kim]

It all comes down to this Kim. What have you done lately in a substantive manner?

I've done environmental work inside of sunken ships (EPA/Coast Guard). Nasty stuff just sits and waits for the right time to kill everyone and everything. Ugly work, dangerous work. So, please don't blag on here.

Really? Ships that have been sunk on purpose and then posed a danger? Could you give us their names so we can see exactly what you're saying here? You seem to be pretty good at blagging yourself.

Why do you seem to think that you're the only one entitled to a point of view on stuff like this?

It's odd actually. Why do you seem to so often feel threatened by my opinion, or point of view, that you start to get personal? To me it doesn't say much for the strength of your position.

 

[Wildcard]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228636,00.html
Same basic story in Al jeezra toady. Not sore, scared, this is gonna get ugly!

 

[Kim]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228636,00.html
Same basic story in Al jeezra toady. Not sore, scared, this is gonna get ugly!

[slight hijack]
I'm surprised this stuff scares you. There's probably more people killed in traffic accidents in the US in a single year than all of the people killed by terrorists worldwide in the last 50.

I worked in Oxford St, London at the height of the IRA UK bombing campaign. They hit tube stations, shops in Oxford street, waste baskets etc. People paid more attention to stuff for sure, watching out for unattended suitcases or packages etc. We certainly didn't hand over our way of life and suddenly start living in fear. That's what they wanted - just like now. Give them that and they're winning - THAT'S what makes them do more. The less fuss that people make (and that DOESN'T mean do nothing), and the less publicity they get - the less interesting it becomes.

There's always going be nutcases shouting their mouths off. Getting scared of them is the worst response IMO.
[/slight hijack]

 

[Mr.X]

Why do you seem to think that you're the only one entitled to a point of view on stuff like this?

It's odd actually. Why do you seem to so often feel threatened by my opinion, or point of view, that you start to get personal? To me it doesn't say much for the strength of your position.

Seems the whine and cheese you serve is a regular menu item. So, in order make it easier I have restated my prior post with a vernacular far easier to comprehend:

Yo, you no OG or playa. So don’t OD.

No disrespect yo. Not eating whale meat aint all that.

X

 

[Kim]

Seems the whine and cheese you serve is a regular menu item. So, in order make it easier I have restated my prior post with a vernacular far easier to comprehend:

Yo, you no OG or playa. So don’t OD.

No disrespect yo. Not eating whale meat aint all that.

X

You funny....

Not that I really understood what you just posted, but what has whales got to do with this thread?

So answer the question. Which vessels that have been cleaned and sunk on purpose to make an artificial reef are now causing pollution problems?

 

[Mr.X]

You funny....

Not that I really understood what you just posted, but what has whales got to do with this thread?

So answer the question. Which vessels that have been cleaned and sunk on purpose to make an artificial reef are now causing pollution problems?

None. I’ve worked on ones that were unintentional sinkings. Love, to talk about them, but doing so would give away my anonymity. The larger point, quite relevant to the thread was that the cost and time involved in creating an artifical reef is well worth the effort vs. some of the prior opinions. Something so seemingly benign and covered in sealife can be a timebomb of toxic materials. Some ships, tire reefs, sealed drums, etc are proving toothsome in many cases. PCB's are immensely toxic and very hard to remove.

Ante up. What have you done to help the environment on a substantive, community-oriented basis?

 

[Kim]

None. I’ve worked on ones that were unintentional sinkings. Love, to talk about them, but doing so would give away my anonymity. The larger point, quite relevant to the thread was that the cost and time involved in creating an artifical reef is well worth the effort vs. some of the prior opinions. Something so seemingly benign and covered in sealife can be a timebomb of toxic materials. Some ships, tire reefs, sealed drums, etc are proving toothsome in many cases. PCB's are immensely toxic and very hard to remove.

Ante up. What have you done to help the environment on a substantive, community-oriented basis?

Ok....so where is the argument? We all know that ships that sink by accident can create HUGE problems, but Bill was talking about ships that have been sunk on purpose and cleaned for it. I'm interested. Are you really saying that you don't think they are cleaned well enough as it stands now? Can you explain it with examples so that people who think that what's happening now is OK understand why more should be done because it's not OK? (this is not a trick attack or something - I mean it) To most people they do an awful lot to make sure that ships are as clean as possible before they are sunk - then folks dive them and see loads of fish etc. Why should they think that more needs doing? Is there any actual factual evidence to support those requirements?
I'm really not trying to knock what your saying down - I want you to explain it better....with evidence.

As for what I do.....well, as I thought you knew, my wife is the Environment Officer for this particular area of Japan. She's responsible for everything that can harm people that gets dumped, plus animals that die, get sick etc. Whether it's people dumping car batteries, or factories burning PCBs, chickens with bird flu, rabid dogs - it all ends up on her desk. There's probably a load more that I've forgotten to mention - recycling, rubbish collection, hospital ventilation systems (and other public buildings)....but maybe you get the idea.
Me...I'm a teacher...I teach kids.