What makes someone an "Advanced Scuba Diver"?

[TSandM]

I guess what makes me scratch my head in all of these threads is what the reason for defining the term is. If you are trying to decide whether you are suitable for a given site that is labeled "Advanced", it seems to me that you need to know why it has that label. In general, I think sites get that tag if there are conditions or topography that can be conducive to problems -- for example, a site with a hard bottom at 600 feet, or a site known for strong or unpredictable (or up and down) currents, or a site where navigation is very difficult, or where surface conditions can make reboarding the boat very challenging. I think the term, rather than identifying really "advanced" divers, is simply a red flag to discourage beginners.

I was in a situation similar to the one posited in the original post, just a couple of weeks ago. A site which is normally benign, and by the tide forecasts should have been, turned unfriendly underwater due to an unexpected, strong current in precisely the wrong direction, and on the surface, proved unfriendly due to rough water conditions that had developed during the dive. All three of us handled it calmly and appropriately, but I remember thinking, "Man, am I glad we didn't have any new divers with us!" I would not say the ability to handle that day's dive made us "advanced", but it certainly made us something beyond beginners. Thal's "competent" covers it neatly, and I suspect most Puget Sound divers of any seniority at all have gotten there.

 

[waterpirate]

An advanced diver is someone who can demonstrate the skills and problem solving abilities underwater to handle a wide variety of conditions, and has more logged dives than it takes to become an instructor these days.

This is different for everyone and a moving target, but that is the problem with labels and titles.
Eric

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I guess what makes me scratch my head in all of these threads is what the reason for defining the term is. If you are trying to decide whether you are suitable for a given site that is labeled "Advanced", it seems to me that you need to know why it has that label. In general, I think sites get that tag if there are conditions or topography that can be conducive to problems -- for example, a site with a hard bottom at 600 feet, or a site known for strong or unpredictable (or up and down) currents, or a site where navigation is very difficult, or where surface conditions can make reboarding the boat very challenging. I think the term, rather than identifying really "advanced" divers, is simply a red flag to discourage beginners.

My reason for wanting to have the discussion is purely what you indicated ... to help someone decide whether or not a dive site labelled "advanced" is something they should consider putting themselves into. It doesn't even have to be particularly deep ... imagine how a relatively inexperienced diver might've fared that day you and I dived Farnsworth Bank, and that site's not more than about 80 fsw.

The term "problem-solving" is what got me thinking. Divers who progress to the point where, when faced with a problem then have to figure their way out of, react calmly and think in terms of "what do I have to do", rather than react to an instinct to bolt to the surface would be my criteria for considering yourself ready for sites that are categorized as "advanced".

I was in a situation similar to the one posited in the original post, just a couple of weeks ago. A site which is normally benign, and by the tide forecasts should have been, turned unfriendly underwater due to an unexpected, strong current in precisely the wrong direction, and on the surface, proved unfriendly due to rough water conditions that had developed during the dive. All three of us handled it calmly and appropriately, but I remember thinking, "Man, am I glad we didn't have any new divers with us!" I would not say the ability to handle that day's dive made us "advanced", but it certainly made us something beyond beginners. Thal's "competent" covers it neatly, and I suspect most Puget Sound divers of any seniority at all have gotten there.

I was in a similar situation last Saturday with a new diver ... at the same dive site. Granted we were only in 20 feet of water ... but the current was strong enough that it literally pulled my dive float screw out of the bottom. I considered calling the dive ... but by the time we recovered the float and reset it in a more sturdy location the current had slacked off considerably.

What I want people to understand is that ... as Bob DBF pointed out ... having an Advanced c-card doesn't make you an Advanced diver ... your ability to handle yourself in a bad situation is a better indicator ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[chs8084]

Advanced does not mean the same as expert-- and it is all relative to the conditions you are in.

 

[fjpatrum]

This is a bit more freeform than some other threads ... I'd like to key off of something Thalassamania posted recently, and invite thoughts from divers at all levels.



I think Mr. Egstrom makes an interesting point here ... in typical recreational classes we learn skills. In real-world diving, we learn how to apply those skills in a rather wide range of situations, environments and circumstances. Mr. Egstrom refers to "problem solving" ... and I think that's a great way to look at what constitutes advanced diving ... being able to apply skills outside of the context in which you learned them, for the purpose of solving a problem.

An example ... you are diving a wall and encounter an unexpected current that starts sweeping you down and away from the wall. As you kick harder to get back to the wall, CO2 begins building up in your body ... creating an "I can't get enough air" sensation. Meanwhile, your buddy ... who is working as hard as you are ... is slowly being forced farther and farther away by the current.

This is a reasonable ... although difficult ... type of problem that a diver may have to face at some advanced dive sites. Your training gave you all the tools you need to resolve it. There are several possible courses of action ... the advanced diver would be able to consider the options, and settle on one that would have the best potential for a positive outcome.

What would you do? How prepared do you feel you are to utilize the tools of your training to solve a problem underwater?

Do you feel that this is a reasonable criteria by which to consider yourself an "advanced scuba diver"?

If not ... how would you define it?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I am NOT an advanced diver, and by my definition, probably never will be. I have had to solve problems underwater- blown wing, minor free-flows, "lost" mask etc etc. I don't think using problem solving as a definition of "advanced" is a good policy. Competent, yes, advanced, no. Some of us, through innate ability or through other life experiences are going to naturally be able to solve problems in unexpected situations and environments, even as brand new divers. I've been fortunate enough, before I started diving, to have a reasonable amount of innate ability and a lot of life experience at problem solving (in emergency situations) that those underwater issues weren't really a big deal to me. That certainly doesn't make me an advanced diver, though.

For me, as I indicated in Halemano's thread in the basic forum, advanced means specifically being trained for something that wasn't (and shouldn't have been) covered in OW. Overhead environments, extreme conditions (IE ice diving/extreme cold), gas mixes and deco or sat diving are really the only things I can think of that I would consider "advanced". Maybe configurations like carrying a pony or side mount might qualify too. Everything else is just experience and competency at "standard" diving. Being a good and competent diver doesn't make you an "advanced" diver.

I would say if you don't know what to do in your example, while sitting at a computer, you shouldn't be diving. Actually remembering what to do when it really happens is different but still doesn't constitute advanced knowledge. Even the short 4 day PADI OW course I took covered how to deal with down currents and rips, though I'm sure it's glossed over by a lot of instructors (mine included). OW covered how to deal with emergencies (such as a blown wing or a free-flow) though I'm sure it gets glossed over as well and I know specific scenarios I brought up were glossed over for "private discussion after the class". Again, just because the specific course doesn't cover things thoroughly doesn't mean the information isn't in the manuals. All of that is still "basic diving knowledge" straight out of an OW manual.

 

[Aquaviolator]

This is the problem with being able to purchase a certification that states I'm an "Advanced Diver". It goes to some peoples head and some how bypasses their experience level. It becomes an ego booster to some which I've seen first hand where it could of ended really badly. Which leads me to give extreme credit to the Divemasters on this board that have to deal with this on dive boats.

 

[TSandM]

Overhead environments, extreme conditions (IE ice diving/extreme cold), gas mixes and deco or sat diving are really the only things I can think of that I would consider "advanced".

Funny . . . I'm cave certified and have a helium cert, and I don't view those as advanced, either. Specialized, and certainly beyond beginners. I think what I view as "advanced" is people doing 400 foot OC dives with all the bottle-juggling and contingency planning that goes along with that, and people doing cave exploration where they're no-mounting part of it (like the Polish gentleman who is trying to connect the Blue Abyss with the Pit). What's "advanced" probably looks different, depending on where YOU are currently sitting.

But for people trying to decide whether dives or dive sites listed as advanced are appropriate for them to do, the key is to find out WHY the dive is termed advanced, and compare that with your own personal experience and competencies. If you have never dived in current, doing so in a remote site on a wall with no practical bottom may not be the best place to try it.

 

[freewillie]

We're sorta bouncing around a definition without setting a gold standard definition as a comparison. It reminds me of the children's parable of three blind men trying to describe an elephant. Each of the men describe the elephant based on the part of the body they touch. Described as a snake, a wall, a tree, a spear, etc. While each part was different it was all essentially an elephant.

The basis of the question is a recurring theme in multiple threads, "are you capable of diving the situation you are in?" As our skills and experience increases our desire to dive sites beyond beginner also increases. There is no real way of finding out until you jump in the water.

As to Bob's examples, emergency situations occur even in routine basic dives. Being in a challenging situation adds to the task loading. But thinking in a calm, clear manner and dealing with the situation on hand is not just a training issue. A PADI AOW cert simply means you took a few more classes to get a little more exposure to diving. In reality, many skills needed for emergencies are taught in basic OW class.

Stop exerting yourself, calm your breathing down, etc. is a basic OW skill. Staying close to your buddy is a basic OW skill. Being pulled away from your buddy in a current can happen to even experienced drift divers. Personally, I would not fight the current, try swim at an angle to the current to see if I can make headway, and if all else fails shoot SMB and surface, waiting for dive boat. If my buddy is situationally aware then he/she should realize what has happened and notify the boat for appropriate action. Picking a good buddy is also a basic OW skill, but not always practical in instabuddy situations on dive boat. Hopefully you were also paying attention on drift dive predive lecture, paid attention, and asked about being separated in a current issues. Again, basic OW skills.

Being able to handle emergency situations is not an advanced skill, it is an experience skill, but even basic divers should have at least rudimentary proficiency.

 

[Mike Boswell]

An example ... you are diving a wall and encounter an unexpected current that starts sweeping you down and away from the wall. As you kick harder to get back to the wall, CO2 begins building up in your body ... creating an "I can't get enough air" sensation. Meanwhile, your buddy ... who is working as hard as you are ... is slowly being forced farther and farther away by the current.

What would you do? How prepared do you feel you are to utilize the tools of your training to solve a problem underwater?

Do you feel that this is a reasonable criteria by which to consider yourself an "advanced scuba diver"?

If not ... how would you define it?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I can only think of one option: Swim to my buddy, and then, if the two of us cannot get back to the wall (e.g. - by swimming along the bottom or cross current), relax, and ascend.

I think I would call that no more than "competent", for the simple reason that any diver with a little ocean experience should easily be able to do that.

Before I defined "advanced scuba diver", I would first try to define "scuba diver". There are lots of categories.

In the realm of spearfishing, for example, there are some who dink about fecklessly with their Chinese Wal-mart fiberglass three-prongs on shallow reefs, and then there are those who go solo blue-water diving with hand-crafted guns, hunting the deep for powerful pelagic behemoths that can rip your arms off. The latter would be your "advanced" types, generally people who can swim five miles, hold their breath for four minutes, and fillet a 150-pound tuna with a pocket knife.

 

[Thalassamania]

You got a pocket knife? They told me I had to use my teeth ... bastards!