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When are we gonna learn?

Discussion in 'Scuba Related Court Cases' started by NWGratefulDiver, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. NWGratefulDiver

    NWGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Pugetropolis
    67,947
    48,288
    113
    I remember reading about this when it happened, but didn't realize the guy was so inexperienced. Seriously ... taking a guy with a total of 14 dives ... particularly since those were spread out over a 5 year period ... to this particular dive site is just asking for something bad to happen. The dive shop recently closed its doors, which is a shame because I liked those people and they were in a very convenient place. But really ... you have to know when to say "no, you're not qualified for this dive site". And in this case, that should've been a very easy call to make ....

    Family of diver who died at Race Rocks seeks inquiry into recreational industry

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
  2. KevinG58

    KevinG58 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Vallejo California USA
    268
    67
    28
    Besides hiring a DM is there any public record of how he presented his experience level, or lack of?
    Aside from AOW, I've never been asked to show my log book, the most rigorous 'questioning' I've experienced is on waiver forms; how many dives, when was my most recent dive, and how deep (Truk), cold water dive experience (west coast). None of this has ever been actively questioned.
     
    chillyinCanada likes this.
  3. Basking Ridge Diver

    Basking Ridge Diver Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: New Jersey
    1,753
    796
    113
    So should a guy with 14 dives - spread over 5 years know that the dive might be more advanced than he can handle and he has no business making the dive? Is there no personal responsibility?

    Or should all diving be completely in the hands of the OP?

    Test Brain Cells.jpg
     
    Kharon likes this.
  4. MaxBottomtime

    MaxBottomtime Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Torrance, CA
    7,820
    6,073
    113
    We've had more deaths at the underwater park in Avalon, Catalina Island than anywhere in California. There are steps so that divers can walk down to the water and ropes and buoys to keep boats out. It is generally as benign as diving gets. It would be impossible to judge whether any of the deceased was experienced enough to dive there.

    Perhaps the dive shop should have notified anyone signing up as to the possible dangers at Race Rocks if they hadn't already, but the diver himself bears some personal responsibility. The Drifting Dan case had similarities. A diver with little experience signed up for a trip with possible current and could have paid the ultimate price for it. Instead he blamed everyone else and never accepted any personal responsibility.
     
    simcoediver likes this.
  5. ScubaWithTurk

    ScubaWithTurk Bubble Blowing Buddha

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Dibba Fujairah, UAE
    472
    256
    63
    I just read the article and it leaves so many questions but the first two that come to mind is:

    1. did the shop review his dive log and see that he didn't have the experience to dive in such a potentially treacherous spot with strong currents?

    2. If the DM was sharing air via his regulator, how did Mr. Chu get pulled under? I have very little experience as many know here but when sharing air I was taught to lock arms, grab the BCD or some other form of holding onto your buddy. Could the DM not have cut him out of the kelp?

    There is a lot missing and I would love to learn more about this as I find these accident reports to be a great learning tool in risk management.
     
  6. fmerkel

    fmerkel Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Salish Sea (Seattle)
    1,309
    438
    83
    Police officer too. One would have hoped he had a better personal sense of risk management. OTOH, he was young, in a risky field, and probably pretty confident of his inherent capabilities to overcome adversity.

    I've learned over time to just tell people "no". It's a difficult call.....sometimes.....to know when a person is ready to step up to a more rigorous dive. People's talent and experience varies SO much. Enthusiast young men tend to be overconfident in their abilities. Those same guys often don't have a clue.
     
    Lorenzoid and KevinG58 like this.
  7. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor Staff Member

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    25,205
    16,285
    113
    I wrote a course in advanced die planning, and part of it talks about making sure the conditions at a dive site are acceptable for your level of skill and experience. The challenge is getting good and accurate information about the site so you can make an accurate judgment.

    I recently completed two weeks of diving in Bali, diving with two friends who were reasonably experienced but not nearly as experienced as I. We checked ahead of time to see what things would be like, and from what we learned, we expected to have some pretty challenging conditions during some of the dives. There was a suggestion that the female in our group might want to skip some of the dive sites. I bought a PLB and a canister for the trip. When we got there, we encountered some of the easiest diving of our lives. The PLB was a total waste of money and luggage space--there is no way we would have conceivably needed it. The toughest dive we had was a piece of cake. We dived at several locations, and the crews at those places quite correctly indicated that there was nothing to be concerned about on those dives. The reality of our dives was in total contradiction of what our pre-trip research had led us to believe.

    Yes, you are ultimately responsible for making good decisions related to your ability to dive a certain site, but your decisions can only be as good as the information you receive ahead of time. In my view, it is very much the responsibility of a dive operation to give good and accurate information so that people can make good and accurate decisions. If this diver was assured that the dive condition would be within his ability, then I cannot blame him for making the decision to go.
     
  8. sunshower

    sunshower DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location:
    126
    43
    28
    Probably preaching to the choir; 14 dives doesn't equal advanced; he bears some responsibility for himself but the dive industry doesn't help itself by lowering the bar so much.
     
  9. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor Staff Member

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    25,205
    16,285
    113
    When was the bar lowered? The Advanced Open Water certification was created about 50 years ago, and it is still pretty much he same as it was then. Are you saying that the dive shop did not know what the requirements are for this certification and was fooled by the name?
     
    gcarter likes this.
  10. David Mayle

    David Mayle Solo Diver

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Augusta, GA
    23
    20
    3
    So what certification allows you to dive a current? What skill did the DM use to not get swept away? What agency are you guys talking about because I got my AOW after 7 dives through padi. It is just another class with 5 different dives to try and get people interested in diving and expand to 100ft.
    There is no magic number that says you are a proficient diver since all divers are different. what one learns in one dive another takes 10 dives to learn. Some swim like a fish and some can only dog paddle there are too many variables which is why it is a certification. Certification means you have shown you can dive according to a set guidelines under controlled conditions after that it is up to individuals to increase their skills.
     
    A.S.H. and USMC CPL. like this.

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