When are we gonna learn?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There was a long thread about this a while back and it's OT I guess, but this one says you need 30 dives:
TEC 40

TEC45 only requires 50 dives, which is also very low considering these are total dives including dives during prior classes.

I stand corrected. 30 dives it is. I'm surprised given that Self-Reliant diver has a requirement of 100 dives.

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree ... the word "mastery" should be stricken from the OW standards. Nobody "masters" a skill in that class ... they are simply shown how to work toward that goal.

The word "mastery" is used because the concept comes from Benjamin Bloom's concept of mastery learning. In that context it has a specific meaning related to the way scuba is taught. If you use the term the way it is used in common language, it makes no sense. If you use it the way it is used in that instructional process and as it is defined in the courses, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Kharon]

You are defining advance ( a verb) - advanced is an adjective. Used as such, here is the definition:
adjective
adjective: advanced
far on or ahead in development or progress.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The word "mastery" is used because the concept comes from Benjamin Bloom's concept of mastery learning. In that context it has a specific meaning related to the way scuba is taught. If you use the term the way it is used in common language, it makes no sense. If you use it the way it is used in that instructional process and as it is defined in the courses, it makes perfect sense.

... but worldwide there might only be a handful of scuba instructors who have ever heard of Benjamin Bloom, much less understand the context of how he uses the term. For the majority, "mastery" means showing a skill to a student and having them mimic it back to you once while parked on their knees ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kris@bulldogg.ca]

How about the word "master," as in "master diver." As in "I'm a certified master diver." Is 50 logged dives enough to be a "master diver?" Because that's what it takes to become *certified* as a master diver.

I don't think it's anyone here that is misrepresenting what those words mean, and it is precisely that which devalues what the certification actually provides.

Jerome, the obvious answer is "PADI Master Scuba Diver" is a registered trademark of PADI, and is an example of brilliant marketing to promote continuous learning and education with a dive professional. PADI also clearly states

"Fewer than two percent of divers ever achieve this rating. When you flash your Master Scuba Diver card, people know that you’ve spent time underwater in a variety of environments and had your share of dive adventures."
​

You could argue this all day long, what an agency uses for terminology or marketing doesn't meet your stringent standards...... the reality is, that they don't need to..... and PADI or any other agency doesn't care what your standards are, they are in the business enforcing their own standards both to keep their membership safe, and I would assume to reduce their own liability exposure and that of their professional membership.

No one suggests that a Master Scuba Diver is by any means an expert level at all things diving like you suggest. It does show they have at lease 50 dives, and have expanded their knowledge in a variety of dive areas..... which is again "advanced" from that of an AOW diver.

You are defining advance ( a verb) - advanced is an adjective. Used as such, here is the definition:
adjective
adjective: advanced
far on or ahead in development or progress.

We are not hosting an English class, however I assume you are pointing out that my definition as an adjective did not have "far on" included...... mainly because it doesn't matter. "Far on" is a subjective observation, and what you consider "far enough" versus what any agency considers "far enough" is what is really being argued.

Thanks for supporting my point???


I am relatively new to SB..... and I have unquestionably less diving experience than most of those posting, certainly I haven't had enough experience to pass judgment on anyone, but are some members so hostile towards training agencies? What do those members hope to achieve on SB by attempting to scold them?

Please don't take offense to my questions. They come from an honest desire to learn and understand from the group.

 

[kris@bulldogg.ca]

... but worldwide there might only be a handful of scuba instructors who have ever heard of Benjamin Bloom, much less understand the context of how he uses the term. For the majority, "mastery" means showing a skill to a student and having them mimic it back to you once while parked on their knees ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hi Bob,

I can not speak for the general public, however, having recently completed my OWSI, Mastery Learning as a process of teaching is a huge part of the IDC, and I would argue that all of the other participants that were in the IDC I was at were very aware of this...... and that is who should be.

Was this information not included in years past?

 

[boulderjohn]

... but worldwide there might only be a handful of scuba instructors who have ever heard of Benjamin Bloom, much less understand the context of how he uses the term. For the majority, "mastery" means showing a skill to a student and having them mimic it back to you once while parked on their knees ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It doesn't matter if they have heard of Benjamin Bloom. The process is defined in the course, and the word is defined in the standards. The fact that you as a NAUI instructor were not taught the processes and terminology used in PADI does not mean the PADI terminology is wrong. It is entirely correct in its context.

 

[jhnmdahl]

I think part of what PADI has done to get people in the water quicker and lower the bar to entry for "resort" divers, is to break up what many old-timers in particular think of as a single core scuba curriculum into several stages. But it's hard to sell parts 2, 3, and beyond of your core certification path to students who are allowed to dive with few restrictions after completing the basic open water class, so they come up with titles like Advance Open Water and Master Diver that are perhaps as much marketing as anything else.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It doesn't matter if they have heard of Benjamin Bloom. The process is defined in the course, and the word is defined in the standards. The fact that you as a NAUI instructor were not taught the processes and terminology used in PADI does not mean the PADI terminology is wrong. It is entirely correct in its context.

NAUI uses the same word, in the same context ... as do other agencies. I still will point out that the manner in which it is commonly implemented ... which is to demonstrate a skill, plant a diver on their knees and have them mimic it back to you one time ... does not constitute "mastery", even by Bloom's definition of the term.

... and can you be any more condescending, John? It's certainly not from lack of trying ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hi Bob,

I can not speak for the general public, however, having recently completed my OWSI, Mastery Learning as a process of teaching is a huge part of the IDC, and I would argue that all of the other participants that were in the IDC I was at were very aware of this...... and that is who should be.

Was this information not included in years past?

... and what is the criteria with respect to the student? By that I mean what does the student need to do to demonstrate to you, the instructor, that they have mastered the skill?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)