Which pool is better

[Soggy]

Walter once bubbled...

People are already conditioned to hold their breath underwater, teaching skin diving does not affect this.

So what exactly do you teach? If people are already used to holding their breath underwater, what's the point?

A huge part of OW training is teaching people to NOT hold their breath underwater. In my experience it is counterproductive to try and teach a skill while simultaneously teaching its opposite.

To continue a SCUBA dive, you need a tank and a regulator. While I'm not advocating diving without mask, fins and BC, it can be done. I practice, as a matter of routine, diving with two pieces of equipment having simulated failures. It is not unusual to see me swimming around the reef with one fin and no mask, or making as ESA with no fins, or no mask.

Hope you have fun without your mask and fins on. I've never heard of someone losing both their fins and mask during a dive, but hey...if it ever happens to you, you'll be prepared.

If I lost all my equipment at 100 feet, I would have confidence in my ability to surface and reach the exit point. If you don't, you might want to reconsider your personal depth limit.

I dive with a buddy. If I'm out of air, I get his air...we ascend. If I lose my mask, my buddy helps guide me safely to the surface since I can't see my gauges.

I'm sure some are trained that way, but IMHO, it's an accident waiting to happen. I train students to trust their abilities and how to use their equipment. Trust equipment? Not a very good idea, equipment fails.

Your opinion doesn't seem so humble, but in scuba, skills and equipment are both required. You can't survive without either of them. If skills fail...people die. If equipment fails...people die. If one can't learn to trust their equipment, they shouldn't be in the water or need to get the equipment serviced. Likewise, if they can't trust their skills, they should also stay on shore.

If you can breathe underwater without your equipment, then you can tell me you aren't dependent on it. Until you grow gills, though, you are dependent on a tank and a regulator to keep you alive. Equipment fails, but people fail more often.

I wish you luck getting up from 100 feet without injury using your freediving skills. I'll trust my buddy, my skills, my equipment, and make sure I don't run out of air.



Yo....I was just trying to figure out why you saw freediving as such an integral part of scuba diving. You've clearly taken this waaaay too personally.

 

[Walter]

Nothing personal about it, merely answering your question.

"So what exactly do you teach?"

Skills, technique and theory.

"If people are already used to holding their breath underwater, what's the point?"

I don't teach them to hold their breath, although I do teach them to be more effective. Most of the skin diving portion of the class introduces skills with which most are totally unfamiliar.

"In my experience it is counterproductive to try and teach a skill while simultaneously teaching its opposite."

What experience is that? As I asked before, do you base that on teaching skin diving and SCUBA and seeing a problem?

"If skills fail...people die."

Very true!

"If equipment fails...people die."

Not so true, a more accurate statement is: If equipment fails ... unskilled people die.

"If you can breathe underwater without your equipment, then you can tell me you aren't dependent on it."

I am dependent on equipment to continue a SCUBA dive, I've never claimed otherwise. I am not, nor should anyone else be, dependent on equipment to return safely from a dive. Of course, there are exceptions such as caves etc. where you remain dependent on an air supply carried with you, but on the vast majority of dives, a properly trained diver should be able to surface and return to the exit point with total gear failure.

"I wish you luck getting up from 100 feet without injury"

Luck has nothing to do with it. Skills, learned and practiced are what will save a diver when things go wrong. Trust to luck is what anyone with inadequate training does every time they enter the water. Trust your equipment, but even the best gear, properly maintained fails from time to time.

"I've never heard of someone losing both their fins and mask during a dive, but hey...if it ever happens to you, you'll be prepared."

While those who don't practice skills trust to luck.

"Your opinion doesn't seem so humble"

One of my many faults, I fear.

The bottom line is you seem to feel very strongly that skin diving should not be taught in a SCUBA class. Do you have any experience that supports your view?

 

[Soggy]

Walter once bubbled...
I don't teach them to hold their breath, although I do teach them to be more effective. Most of the skin diving portion of the class introduces skills with which most are totally unfamiliar.

What skills are those? Freediving, especially in a pool, doesn't require very many skills. Put on a mask (or not), take a few big breaths, and swim downward. Clear your ears periodically, as you would in scuba. Come up when you need to breathe.

"In my experience it is counterproductive to try and teach a skill while simultaneously teaching its opposite."

What experience is that? As I asked before, do you base that on teaching skin diving and SCUBA and seeing a problem?

No, I base that on teaching another very skills based past-time/profession - music. Teaching contrary skills simultaneously is counterproductive. Perhaps you don't see those two skills as contrary, but reinforcing breath holding skills when the number one rule of diving is "don't hold your breath" seems illogical.

"Your opinion doesn't seem so humble"

One of my many faults, I fear.

Just commenting on your use of IMHO.

The bottom line is you seem to feel very strongly that skin diving should not be taught in a SCUBA class.

I'm not specifically against it. I just see it as a waste of time and energy when that time could be spent practicing much more important skills, such as buddy procedures, air-sharing drills, etc. Besides...anyone can dive 10-15 feet down in a pool...what are you really teaching them? By your own admission, people hold their breath instinctively.

You still haven't given an example of a specific skill that is learned from freediving that is necessary for diving. It's great that your practice removing your mask and fins and do emergency ascents, but what does that have to do with freediving?

As for experience teaching scuba specifically. Nope, I don't have any. I do have a brain and experience both freediving and scuba diving, however.

 

[Walter]

"What skills are those?"

Actually, there are quite a few skills. Look at this thread for details.

"Perhaps you don't see those two skills as contrary, but reinforcing breath holding skills when the number one rule of diving is "don't hold your breath" seems illogical."

It certainly does seem illogical, I agree. In practice, it works beautifully. Students are much better SCUBA divers as a result. Lots of things seem illogical that work very well. I know from experience this is one. I know a little music, but I'm certainly not qualified to teach it.

"Just commenting on your use of IMHO."

Oh, I understood the reference, I'm smarter than I look.

"I just see it as a waste of time and energy when that time could be spent practicing much more important skills, such as buddy procedures, air-sharing drills, etc"

That might be the case except for one minor point, my classes already have more SCUBA skills and more practice with those skills than the vast majority of classes.

"anyone can dive 10-15 feet down in a pool...what are you really teaching them?"

I'm teaching them skin diving. There are required open water skin dives as well.

"You still haven't given an example of a specific skill that is learned from freediving that is necessary for diving."

I believe you've missed the point. SCUBA can easily be taught without learning skin diving, I've never claimed otherwise. It can also be taught without no mask breathing, without mask clearing etc. Including these skills increases a diver's confidence and reduces the risk of panic.

I know you don't believe certain skills reduce the risk of panic, but after working on a dive charter in the Keys for almost 7 years, I know they do.

 

[Soggy]

Sounds like you have a very thorough class.

 

[Soggy]

To respond to the initial post....

I'm not an instructor, but my LDS has an amazing pool for diving. It is about half the size of an olympic pool with 1/4 of it being 3 feet deep. After that, there is a vertical drop off to 15 feet deep. None of this slanted stuff. You can do a giant stride into it and practice all sorts of skills at 10-15 feet. This is great, since you can practice an ascent from safety stop depth.


Sorry for the hijack. I was just interested in hearing about why Walter felt freediving was so important.

 

[SubMariner]

Frankly, you cannot teach the Confined Water session(s) for Open Water without both a shallow and deep end. In fact, it is mandatory simply because there are skills that require "water too deep to stand up in" and water "shallow enough to stand up in".

Often I have done training in public pools where the only space I could get was a single lane. Well, that was just perfect, because I had (you guessed it) a shallow and a deep end.

That being said, Walter is spot on that confined water does not always refer to just a swimming pool; but rather to someplace having "swimming pool like conditions". IOW, a shallow and deep end, excellent vis, calm water, etc. Many's a time while living on our boat in the Bahamas I would teach confined water sessions off a sandy beach.... then take the student(s) for the appropriate Open Water dives. What better way to show people exactly how the skills they learned are actually USED?

DSDO,

~SubMariner~

 

[frogxman]

Yes, probably a pool with shallow and deep end is an ideal way to teach. The reason I asked my question is that my club do not have access to such a pool. One of the pools is half shallow half about 10 feet deep. It is not enough. The second pool is about 18 feet deep. It also has the shallow end but it is usually occupied by the competitive swimmers. The different classes take place in different pools and there is a big difference in how they have to be conducted.

As for freediving/skindiving personally I believe that this is very important skill for increasing confidence under water. The confidence for example is what is required from a DM. During my DM course we had a lot of UW games without scuba equipment - UW hockey, swimming through hula hoops suspended on different depths on one breath from wall to wall etc. With some experience in scuba I am constantly training myself the skindiving skills.
But of course there is a difference in your behaviour depending on situation. If you get a breath of air onthe surface, then you manage your air supply. In the beginning you hold your breath and then you start to exhale.
If, for example, you breath compressed air, and then remove your equipment and swim without it - you can't hold your breath - you should exhale, slowly, but constantly.

 

[cudachaser]

I have used a wide range of pools...best all around...a shallow area for introducing skills, relaxing nervous students etc...4 feet is best and then a deep area...prefer the 12 ft range...this assures the student can master ear clearing and buoyancy skills are easier to develop.

In classes I have taught in a 6 ft pool, the students historically have more trouble clearing ears when they hit the big water. The other edge of deep water and exercises is if they have to make multiple ascents & decents.... the ears get harder and harder to clear as the session wears on...so I try to minimize the ascents and decents in deep water.

 

[JDostal]

I took my OW class in a pool that was regulation swimming pool on one end, and then had a seperation that you could swim into to get into the deep end which was down to 15 feet. I liked that a lot...it's the same pool that I'm helping teach in now. It's easy to have the students practice the skills in the real shallow stuff, but nice to bring them down into the deeper water to swim around and do somersaults and get used to everything.