which regs for tech

[Ontwreckdiver]

I dive the cold fresh water of the Great lakes.
Which first stage would be better suited for dives to 150 ft. (for right now).
The MR22 or the MR42 or do you still make the MR32?
Which second stage, the Abyss or the Proton Metal.

Thanks

 

[mempilot]

At 150 fsw, there aren't a lot of bad choices for regulators. If you plan on going a lot deeper, you may want to take a look at some other manufacturers. I've dived several different regulators deeper than recreational limits, and I prefer Apeks DS4 1st stages mated with ATX50 2nd stages. They come with an environmental seal for cold water, and the barrel is adjustable so you can overtune the first stage to say 140+ psi and still keep the second stage cracking pressure dialed back at the surface to keep it from freeflowing. This will give you the positive gas flow you'll want when diving very deep. But, like I said, 150 isn't really beyond the realm of most decent recreational regualtors.

 

[Zak OHara]

I dive the cold fresh water of the Great lakes.
Which first stage would be better suited for dives to 150 ft. (for right now).
The MR22 or the MR42 or do you still make the MR32?
Which second stage, the Abyss or the Proton Metal.

Thanks

Hi there,

All of the above mentioned regulators are perfectly suitable for diving at those depths. We still manufacture all of the regs mentioned. As of now the 32 1st stage will come paired only with our new Prestige NTT 2nd stage. These will be available within the next couple of months. All are great regulators, you really can't go wrong with any of them. I think it just boils down to personal preference at this point. I personally choose the Abyss 42 available within 3 weeks.

Thanks for asking.

Sincerely,

 

[Greg Barlow]

At 150 fsw, there aren't a lot of bad choices for regulators. If you plan on going a lot deeper, you may want to take a look at some other manufacturers. I've dived several different regulators deeper than recreational limits, and I prefer Apeks DS4 1st stages mated with ATX50 2nd stages. They come with an environmental seal for cold water, and the barrel is adjustable so you can overtune the first stage to say 140+ psi and still keep the second stage cracking pressure dialed back at the surface to keep it from freeflowing. This will give you the positive gas flow you'll want when diving very deep. But, like I said, 150 isn't really beyond the realm of most decent recreational regualtors.

I don't agree with this statement, as once you dive below 150 feet or so, you should be diving with an appropriate helium based mix. When that is considered, the decreased gas density of the mix allows the reg to perform at levels far exceeding what would have been experienced if diving deep air.

As far as the Mares first stages go, I have extensive experience with the following designs: MR12, MR16/V16, MR22, and V42. I personally use MR12 first stages on my cave doubles, and for many of my stage/deco bottles. I use the other designs primarily when diving with a single tank. My rigs are all set with Hogarthian hose systems, and I really like the routing of the MR22 and V42. The 42 has the advantage of using all 3/8" LP ports.

I recommend the 42 for diving the Great Lakes. It is the only current Mares reg that uses a dry sealed chamber, and the first stages are so tiny that they shouldn't create any problems on singles or doubles. Of course, neither my buddies or I use sealed first stages in cold water. I made two dives this weekend in 39 degrees water, and my Mares V42 Proton Metal worked superbly. One of my dive buddies is an ice diving instructor, and he uses unsealed V16 first stages. Never once has he had a free flow with his regs.

I do highly recommned the use of the Proton Metal or Abyss second stages. Many divers talk about how great metal air barrels are for cold water diving. With that thought, the fact that the Mares second stages are all metal is a big plus.

I owned an Apeks DS4/TX50 for more than four years. It was a great reg, and I had no problems with it. My only concern about the Apeks regs is that the intermediate pressure can get pretty high before the second stage will vent the excessive pressure. This can, and has, caused wing inflators to start bleeding the excessive gas. I personally check my regs for normal operation during each dive trip. One of these checks is to determine if the IP is stable, and at the correct level.

Greg Barlow
Former Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine

 

[mempilot]

Greg,

What part of my statement do you disagree with? You never said. All you did was change the topic to He mixes, which I agree with you that they should be used in deeper depths.

Are you saying that diver adjustable (cracking pressure) regulators aren't valuable for deeper diving? Are you saying that the Apeks is not a good choice for deeper divers?

Silly statement, if that is the case. While many deep divers utilize Apeks regulators, very few use Mares regulators. Even your replacements at SDM have pointed out the Apeks as a true performer in deeper depths.

So, what are you really disagreeing with?

 

[simcoediver]

Ontariowrekdiver, I think you might get a better answer if you ask this question on Ontario Diving. there are a lot of very experienced Great Lakes divers on that forum that would be able to give you a good answer. I myself dive Apeks regs as do a lot of other divers up here. Is there a reason you are leaning towards Mares?
Nice picture of the Comet by the way! one of my favourite wrecks.

 

[Greg Barlow]

Greg,

What part of my statement do you disagree with? You never said. All you did was change the topic to He mixes, which I agree with you that they should be used in deeper depths.

Are you saying that diver adjustable (cracking pressure) regulators aren't valuable for deeper diving? Are you saying that the Apeks is not a good choice for deeper divers?

Silly statement, if that is the case. While many deep divers utilize Apeks regulators, very few use Mares regulators. Even your replacements at SDM have pointed out the Apeks as a true performer in deeper depths.

So, what are you really disagreeing with?

My point is that if a regulator is fine on air at depths around 150fsw, then it is perfectly fine on mix at depths below. USN tests back in the mid 60's demonstrated that a reg's WOB at 200fsw on air was nearly identical to the same model using mix at 600fsw. The exhalation effort was a bit higher, but the inhalation effort was almost identical.

Regs with adjustable cracking effort are excellent choices for deep diving. My disagreement comes from your statement that a reg might be fine at 150, but not below that level. As an example, if I am diving with air on a Mares Proton Metal at 120fsw, and switch to 15/40/45 (just an example) at 200fsw, the reg will actually be easier to breathe from than while it was while on air at 120fsw. With your experience on CCR, you certainly are a witness to this fact of physics.

Also, if Mares regs are not a good choice for deep diving, then why were they chosen by John Bennett for making dives in the 1,000fsw range? Mares regs are very popular in Europe for deep dives, and other sorts. They are also very popular in Asia for the same types of technical uses. While in Europe on various trips, I have found them to be a very commonly seen reg.

I certainly am not knocking Apeks, or any other brand. If you are a fan of Apeks, then I am certain that you are fully aware of the possible issue of the balanced second stage not relieving excess IP until it is typically at the 160-170psi range. I know that Apeks/Aqualung is aware of the issue. Independent testing has clearly demonstrated that this has caused some inflators to begin self-inflating. I personally know technical divers who have installed overpressure relief valves on their Apeks first stages as a safeguard against this potential problem. If you are "overtuning" your first stage to 140psi, then it would be unlikely that you would have to increase the cracking effort adjustment to prevent a slight leakage. BTW, this problem with balanced second stages is not just isolated to Apeks regs. The downstream action of a balanced second stage is partially overridden by the pneumatic balancing feature. Some manufacuters are reduced the poppet stem area to compensate for the issue. Just out of interest, why don't you put an IP gauge on your DS4, and start slowly increasing the IP. Check and see at what point the second stage begins to free flow.

Yes, ANSTI results show that Apeks regs have great performance. They easily meet the USN Class "A" standards. It is quite common for them to generate WOB scores under 1.0j/l. Of course, most of the Mares regs also meet the Class "A" standards. ANSTI tests around the world, including Aqualungs, clearly demonstrate that a person cannot tell the difference in WOB until it reaches a difference of 0.4j/l. So...With that in mind a Mares reg that earns a score of 1.2j/l at 198fsw with a breathing rate of more than 60lpm more than meets the needs of any diver, especially considering that it was calcualated on air.

I am not meaning to sound argumentative, but when divers knock Mares regs because they are not adjustable, it often sounds as if they are assuming that they are inferior because of this design. I personally prefer their second stage designs due to the mechanical simplicity. My diving career has spanned over 30 years, and I have yet to see a metal bodied, unbalanced, downstream reg free flow in cold water, or completely fail on a dive.

For utter reliability, it is pretty tough to beat the design. I own or have owned, regs from the following companies: AquaLung, ScubaPro, Oceanic, Sea Quest (AquaLung), Apeks, and Mares. They were all quality products, and I would gladly dive with any of them.

Greg Barlow

 

[mempilot]

I only quoted the 150 depth in my statement as a matter of that is what the original poster was asking about. I don't think 150 is deep, and most of the regs I've used breathed fine at that depth. However, I've had regs not breathe easy at depths not much deeper than that, say 180 to 210. I believe it had to do with the 1st stages. IP tuned to high, say 145 psi, on these regs, and the 1st stages would free flow in the shallower depths. Without the ability to manually adjust the cracking pressure, they were not good choices for deep diving for me.

I never said Mares were bad choices. I just said that they might want to look at other tried and true regs for deep diving. The ease of overhaul, simplicity in design, and adjustability being my points.

I like Mares regs. Just not for deeper diving, which I admit is much deeper than 150 fsw.

We're probably not really arguing theory, but just heckling over finer points.

 

[Greg Barlow]

I only quoted the 150 depth in my statement as a matter of that is what the original poster was asking about. I don't think 150 is deep, and most of the regs I've used breathed fine at that depth. However, I've had regs not breathe easy at depths not much deeper than that, say 180 to 210. I believe it had to do with the 1st stages. IP tuned to high, say 145 psi, on these regs, and the 1st stages would free flow in the shallower depths. Without the ability to manually adjust the cracking pressure, they were not good choices for deep diving for me.

I never said Mares were bad choices. I just said that they might want to look at other tried and true regs for deep diving. The ease of overhaul, simplicity in design, and adjustability being my points.

I like Mares regs. Just not for deeper diving, which I admit is much deeper than 150 fsw.

We're probably not really arguing theory, but just heckling over finer points.

I have read many of your postings, and I agree with the vast majority of your thoughts. You use (IMHO) logical thoughts, and obviously look fondly at ruggedness in your gear. For example, your choice of a Meg CCR. Megs are reknown for their relative simplicity, and ability to keep on working even if the electronics go wacko.

If I have offended you, then please accept my apologies. From my end, we are just heckling fine points.

BTW, I really enjoy looking at your gallery photos. They are of outstanding quality.

Greg

 

[mempilot]

Greg, thanks and no offense taken. Jill Heinerth gets credit for most of the pics of me on the Meg. She is outstanding. The Meg is a very robust tool. I look forward to taking deeper this year.