Why donate my Primary?

[costi]

The search function is your friend. This was covered quite well in the following note:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=10022

Read my reply #9 in that thread -- absolutely no new ground is being covered by this new thread.

Roak

Just finished reading that thread you mentioned! It started out delivering some good information...then turned into a bashing session with you often at the helm.
Thanks guys on this thread for your productive input in answering my origional question. It has definately given me "food for thought"...with the most thought going in the direction of be prepared for anything!
Bob

 

[MikeFerrara]

That's easy to do if you only dive with known buddies in areas where other divers aren't allowed.

However for most recreational dives, there's absolutely no reason that the person who grabs your reg couldn't be from a different buddy-pair or even a different boat.

Terry

This says a lot for the dive industry and mainstream training in general doesn't it? It sounds like its time for some drastic changes and/or to carry a weapon on recreational dives.

 

[TSandM]

I will bet that not one person that has posted in this thread, posted in the one you linked to from 2002..

You'd lose that bet, since the person who posted the link was linking to his own post . . .

 

[BabyDuck]

that was uncalled for.

 

[RICoder]

I'm sort of suprised that this hasn't been said (or maybe I missed it), but in any rescue situation you are going to want to ensure you are safe before you attempt to help anyone else out.

Beyond that, OW classes should not be teaching people to GRAB FOR ANY REGULATOR off another diver. What is/should be being taught is to give an OOA signal and wait to be given a regulator to breath off. While I realize this is a 'perfect world' example, it still should be what is being taught.

Personally, I think it should always be the primary that a diver gives up, as it works with near all configurations (i.e. DIR, which I'm not a particular fan of, and AIR2 configs). However, you shouldn't be handing it over without having the other air source ready to go.

Any other problems that pop up, like a broken octo or air2, should be dealt with at the time, not used as a reason to not give up the primary.

 

[LowVizWiz]

What is/should be being taught is to give an OOA signal and wait to be given a regulator to breath off. While I realize this is a 'perfect world' example, it still should be what is being taught.

I absolutely agree with you... This is exactly what my instructor teached our class. He also happens to be a PADI instructor. While he teached the class he also added that the diver should always be prepared for whatever situation you're faced with.

If an OOA diver rips your primary off of your mouth and you're a PADI diver are you going to take it back because you're not trained to do so? Absolutely not!

Also pretending that you have control over every aspect of a dive is crazy... One can never be sure of who will or will not be faced with an emergency at any given moment no matter what level of training the person has! Sure, experience tends to make things easier, but that's not an excuse to not be prepared for the unexpected!

Whatever configuration one chooses to use should never be considered the only way... The best configuration is the one that gets both divers safely to the surface at that particular time.

 

[lamont]

Reasons for a Long Hose / Bungee Backup on a Recreational Dive:

#1. Your mouth is the best quick-release

The golden rule of quick releases are that they release when they aren't supposed to and that they don't release when you want them to. With an octo in some kind of holder that means that either the hose gets snagged and it pulls out of the holder (and it potentially drags behind you, free-flowing) or you can't get it out when you really need it which slows down an OOA. With a long hose, your primary is either in your mouth or you will know about it and be inclined to fix it, and donating is a snap. Its the only quick release that you can really trust.

#2. You know where your regs are

This is almost a corollary of #1. You know your primary reg is in your mouth and your backup is around your neck.

#3. You know if your regs are free-flowing

Again, same thing. Octo can wind up behind you, dangling in the wind, free flowing your air out. With a long hose either you'll have bubbles in your face or bubbles coming up around your neck and both locations are very close to your ears. You should see a free flow and should hear it.

#4. Regulator recovery is trivial

If you have your primary knocked out of your mouth, just go to your backup. I think I did this around dive #7-10 when I got a face-full of Jetfin from another diver and it was considerably less stressful than the sweep that is taught in OW, or trying to feel hoses from the valve.

#5. Optimizes for another diver going for your primary reg

This one appears to have been covered. Guarantee you that if someone goes for my bungee backup that I'll be able to cram my primary into their face before that gets too out of hand and they'll get the idea. And if they're still thinking rationally enough to try to look for some regulator that I'm not breathing off of, they should hopefully signal first.

#6: Your backup reg is *yours*, get a decent one and take care of it.

Think this one got covered, at least Roakey mentioned it in his previous post.

#7: You can do a 'perfect' OOA every time, quickly.

It takes a second to deploy a long hose, and you can do it consistantly and quickly, every single time, and present the OOA diver with a working, properly oriented regulator, every single time. Done right, you should never hand off a regulator which is upside down or have any issues with deploying it.

#8: The long hose helps with OOA

We just went through this all in another thread. I do not believe that tightly grabbing the OOA victim and heading directly for the surface is the best idea. If you've got the gas for it, you should head for an upline or up the shore, since the OOA diver may not be able to hold their stop on a blue-water ascent (if the OOA diver isn't a buddy of mine, this is the thing I'm *most* concerned about). The 7' hose really helps for swimming side-by-side.

#9. The long hose config routes cleanly.

All the hoses are in the profile of the diver. If you look at most rec divers they've usually got one or two hoses going *way* outside their profile. The hong hose, bungee backup config routes in your profile.

#10. If a diver is 7' away from their air source, they'll usually try to close that gap.

People have been posting like having 7' of leeway is a bad thing. Its not. Its 7' they can move before they start to drag you along with them, and typically they're going to hit the end of their rope and have a lot of incentive to fix the problem and get closer to you. If you've got a shorter hose, then as soon as they start losing their buoyancy control upwards, then both of you start getting dragged up -- and I have actually tested this one out around dive #20 for real when I had a valve only 1/4 turn on and went OOA on someone with a long hose at 60 fsw. I lost buoyancy control upwards initially, but got it under control.

...

Various different modifications, like going to a longer backup, don't actually solve a problem that is ever likely to be really encountered underwater and start to compromise pieces of the system -- like the clean hose routing. That's a good example of trying to overthink every possible failure case, no matter how incredibly unlikely.

 

[costi]

You'd lose that bet, since the person who posted the link was linking to his own post . . .

TS and M,
For the record, I appreciate your input and have learned a lot from reading your posts and links in the short amount of time I have been visiting ScubaBoard. I also enjoy reading your journals. I haven't read all of your "2700+" posts, but yes, I am sure they are enlightening! Thanks again, Bob C

 

[MikeFerrara]

Also pretending that you have control over every aspect of a dive is crazy... One can never be sure of who will or will not be faced with an emergency at any given moment no matter what level of training the person has! Sure, experience tends to make things easier, but that's not an excuse to not be prepared for the unexpected!

Increased control over a wider range of conditions is the result of training and practice in applying specific procedures and associated equipment to manage a given set of problems.

Whatever configuration one chooses to use should never be considered the only way... The best configuration is the one that gets both divers safely to the surface at that particular time.

Speaking as a former engineer there is almost always more than one way to do a thing and many times the possibilities are almost infinate.

The best configuration? We can define "best" in many different ways...cost, ease of procurement, replacement, speed, taining considerations, versatility and the list goes on and on. I would not define the "best" as being the one that works in a single instance. I could cerainly get through many air sharing situations by buddy breathing and sharing my single primary using no backup or alternate at all. As I mentioned earlier, I have even donated my backup on a short hose and it worked fine in that instance. I wouldn't argue that either of those is the "best" though. In this context, I tend to think of the best as being the one that stands the greatest chance of success in the range of conditions that I need it to work.

In this case, donating the primary works in almost all cases...if only using a single reg, if using an air2 type thing or if using a backup bungied or whatever. It's also a configuration that lends itself well to streamlining and versatility. We use the same basic configuration whether we're diving single tanks on a reef, in a quarry or wearing doubles and a whole stack of stage and decompression tanks. the same basic emergency procedures apply. While equipment and procedures are added for more complex dives, the base configuration and procedures remain exactly the same and in all cases, the first reg we donate is the one in our mouth.

I can't think of a situation where an OOA diver would be confused when I extend him a reg regardless of where I got it. I also can't think of a case where I would have to fumble to find or deploy the one I'm breathing on. I can also be 100% certain that it works since I just took a breath from it. Anything else that the OOA diver may need can wait as long as he is breathing...the general confusion of the dive industry at large on this point is even demonstrated in the way things like reg recovery are taught...this blowing bubbles while searching nonsense...first get something to breath and then sort out your other equipment issues. If I lose a reg it'll be hanging off my right shoulder since it's on a wrapped 7 ft hose but if not my backup is right under my chin where I can even get it in my mouth with no hands if I need to. If my buddy drops a reg and doesn't have the common sense to switch to a backup my primary will be presented for their breathing convenience. Again, if every one is breathing we have plenty of time to see to whatever else might be going on and troubles rarely come one at a time.

 

[subvet644]

As a newbie I'm reluctant to enter into this discussion. I've spent many more hours on this forum than in the water (unfortunately) but I have hopefully absorbed knowledge that will be retained if needed. Remembering my sailor days from many years past, my goal was to reduce "danglies" and have everything shipshape. I chose an Air2 to eliminate one hose. It became my "special friend" on my very first OW cert. dive. Because of poor trim, inexperience, 3' vis and 56 degree water I missed my primary on the regulator recovery sweep as I did a 90 degree pitch to the port side. I grabbed the Air2 got some air and then recovered my primary. My instructor was right there and ready to stuff a reg in my mouth but I waved him off. I don't offer this to brag about how cool I was just to comment that the Air2 was right there and my first instinct was to get it. Now I can see the advantage of a bungeed octo as well. I know I'll get some glares with an Air2 on a bp/w, but at my age I'll never be a poster child for anything. Man, three weeks to Coz!