Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[Aqualovr]

Personally, I think you're right, I know that I'm not supposed to make remarks that put other professionals down, or show them in a bad light, but I've assisted with plenty of classes when the instructor settled on the minimum standard for teaching & practicing cesa's, usually twice in the pool, swimming diagonally from deep end to shallow, to simulate depth, and once in the check outs... cesa is not advanced, but basic to anyone who dives..., and I disagree with the above comment that it's ok to come out of your scuba unit entirely,for one, keeping your second stage in your mouth while ascending may give you an extra breath of air because of course as you ascend, there's less ambient pressure holding it in the tank, also the time you take doing that might become critical, once on the surface, no bc means no bouyancy which further increases stress and I don't advise it at anytime... cesa means controlled...not drop & pop... stay close to your buddy, practice untill it becomes automatic, never dive past your limits, know your limits, moniter your air as if your life depends on it, always think three steps ahead...ok...done preachin...now where the heck's my dern'd pony bottle ?....lol

 

[fisherdvm]

There are so many alternatives now that CESA is pointless. Experience breeds complacency quite often. Its a danger for a lot of divers. Its something though they should realise and address. Its not an argument for CESA, its another argument for practicing and refreshing skills.

Again, if someone hasnt done a buddy check in years, not checked their gear, equipment, regulator config, dived with a buddy and so on in years why do you suddenly expect them to remember a CESA if all the above is forgotten?

CESA seems to be pushed in to cover up poor dive planning and poor dive practices. Its not there for any other reason. Training time should be spent solving the root cause rather than inventing potentially dangerous last resort alternatives.

I appreciate your well thought of input, which reflects the opinion of many other experienced instructors here.

But, it seems like the people most at risk for OOA and needing CESA are the DM and Instructors who tag along doing videography. I have yet seen one of them with a pony bottle, but they are the one that need it the most. Being so focused on their photographic activity, and frequently maintaining at least 10 to 20 yards from the nearest diver, these folks are the ones that might need CESA in the case of equipment failure. Since I am not in this category, I need to focus on the essential skills you mentioned more.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think you're drawing entirely the wrong conclusion.

Every single case listed there SHOULD have been prevented by divers using their proper training, gas management and buddy skills. Time needs to be spend on these. Not one of these incidents *needed* a CESA. Spend time focussing on getting the basic skills correct rather than invent another skill that isn't needed in the first place if the basics are done correctly.

Absolutely correct, in this day and age there is no reason to HAVE to make an ESA. Redundant gear and your diving comrade should take care of all issues.

That said:

If the divers in question fail to execute 3 basic skills correctly why does introducing a 4th (CESA) suddenly mean they'll do that right? Chances are if they cant do an octopus ascent, buddy breathe, carry a redundant air source, read an spg or stay with a buddy they wont be able to perform a CESA either.

This is also true. But people being what they are (air breathing vertebrates) and are more comfortable and relaxed if they KNOW that no matter what happens they can make to the surface. It’s not a wholly rationale thing, and since the accomplishment of the skill is no big deal, unless you’re conducting a 20 hour course and that’s a separate issue fraught with any number of perils above and beyond neglecting to teach ESA. Chances are, in a 209 hr course, octopus ascent, buddy breathing, redundant air source use, reading an spg and staying with a buddy are also being slighted, along with god only knows what else, probobly easier in that case to obtain mastery mastery of an ESE than mastery of all the other things that you're supposed to do.

When people dived J-Valves CESA had a purpose. There are now so many other methods to get safely to the surface and avoid running out of air its not needed at all. Why waste time training it when teaching OOA ascents, gas management and so on will prevent it ever being needed.

Actually when we dove J-Valves it was pretty easy, when the air started to drag you reached back and then you had enough air to get comfortably to the surface. When you found that either the lever was already down, or the J-valve had not held any air back you either buddy-breathed (we knew how to do that back in the day) or you started up and the pressure change often gave you the few breaths you needed to get to the surface.

When Anyone in the position of "needing" CESA these days has done many many things wrong in the execution of their dive. Address those problems first.

Address then all … including proper execution of an ESA.

 

[PerroneFord]

I disagree. I'm sorry. Things don't just "happen". Things happen due to a chain of poor decisions without adequate skill or gear to make up the deficit. Your story is a classic example.

1. Diver is presumed to be knowledgable because he is experienced. Fallacy.

2. Diver clearly failed to do proper pre-dive check. Otherwise he would have noticed he was breathihng off a pony bottle and not his main tank. Are you seriously telling me that someone who's been diving for 30 years couldn't tell which regulator he had in his mouth??

3. Diver descends solo.

4. Diver lost a high pressure hose at 80ft. At that depth it would take several minutes to drain an AL80 with a HP leak. So you're saying he paniced.

5. Diver neglected to check his SPG both on the surface and after descent this confirming that his gear was in working order.

So where in the accident chain do we want to start? Gear configuration that would allow someone to even begin a dive breathing off the wrong tank? Maybe the idea of jumping in solo? Or the mindset that since he'd done this task countless times, the pre-dive check could be ignored? Why start with examining it from the endpoint, i.e. the CESA?

This accident didn't just "happen". It was created by a long series of poor decisions.

I agree that you should address those problems first for "needing" cesa, but things happen. I know a very experienced dive (around 30 years) and dives several hundred times a year off NJ. He went over to tie in the anchor into the wreck and accidently went off his pony first. While making the dive he drained the pony and realized what happened and switched to his main tank. Then all of the sudden the high pressure hose ruptured. He did a CESA from about 80 feet. If not for that skill it would have been a completly different situation. Anyone can make a mistake, but the ability to have alternatives is the best thing you can have

 

[MikeFerrara]

As has been pointed out, most agencies do teach CESA. DAN may point out the number of reported fatalities due to OOA but yet the agencies don't put two and two together and teach gas management. Lots of divers run OOA or very low on air and live. DAN doesn't trport those but most of us have seen it and it's certainly something you can read about just about evcery day here on scubaboard. It's just a pretty common thing and yet agencies won't teach gas management and new divers continue to head for resorts and start their dive careers with some pretty deep dives...after training for and at 30 ft and generally having no clue at all.

I think CESA should be taught and, for the most part, it is. There is a VERY long list of other things I think should be taught that aren't.

 

[fire_diver]

Simple math tells me, a 3 cu ft spare air has 85 liters of air. Normal male tidal volume is 500 cc or 1/2 a liter. Normal breaths taken from a spare air should take nearly 160 breaths at the surface.

Of course, the macho guy who wants to prove other wise would use his forced vital volume, which is 5 liter. Even with this maximum breath (not needed for diving), he still would need nearly 16 deep breath to empty the can.

For a woman or child, the spare air could easily give 200 or more breaths at the surface.

Unless my math is wrong, I wonder if we can save alot of the 29 folks who died each year if they had a spare air.

Your math is wrong.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think CESA should be taught and, for the most part, it is. There is a VERY long list of other things I think should be taught that aren't.

That's the real point, it's not that the time gained by neglected CESA will result in less risky dives because something more important can be taught. CESA solves a wide range of problems (in the worst possible way). Unless all those other things are mastered, mastery of CESA is, IMHO, critical. If a diver has all the other things down cold, then CESA can go to the bottom of the list. But for a diver with mastery of the entire curriculum, proper performance of a CESA is likely not an issue. Can you spell Catch-22?

 

[edjohnson66]

Just for the record it is customary for the dive master to go in by himself in NJ to tie the anchor into the wreck. Its part of the job. And you illustrated my point, people do do things wrong from time to time. No one can ever say they made a mistake he went down with wrong reg in mouth began the tie in and then noticed it. The high pressure hose did rupture, (which was an equipment problem). But he was able to get out of the bad situation by knowing how to perform and ESA. So it did what it was designed for

As for checking the SPG when he hit the water the pony still had 3000 psi in it so how would he have known he was using the wriong reg in the first place

I disagree. I'm sorry. Things don't just "happen". Things happen due to a chain of poor decisions without adequate skill or gear to make up the deficit. Your story is a classic example.

1. Diver is presumed to be knowledgable because he is experienced. Fallacy.

2. Diver clearly failed to do proper pre-dive check. Otherwise he would have noticed he was breathihng off a pony bottle and not his main tank. Are you seriously telling me that someone who's been diving for 30 years couldn't tell which regulator he had in his mouth??

3. Diver descends solo.

4. Diver lost a high pressure hose at 80ft. At that depth it would take several minutes to drain an AL80 with a HP leak. So you're saying he paniced.

5. Diver neglected to check his SPG both on the surface and after descent this confirming that his gear was in working order.

 

[Soggy]

Just for the record it is customary for the dive master to go in by himself in NJ to tie the anchor into the wreck. Its part of the job. And you illustrated my point, people do do things wrong from time to time. No one can ever say they made a mistake he went down with wrong reg in mouth began the tie in and then noticed it. The high pressure hose did rupture, (which was an equipment problem). But he was able to get out of the bad situation by knowing how to perform and ESA. So it did what it was designed for

That's one way to look at it...:blinking:

 

[edjohnson66]

and for the record I am not saying everything was done perfectly I am just saying he was able to get out of a bad situation