Worst trend in Scuba Diving instruction many of us have ever seen...Avoid Groupon!

[The Chairman]

Its ironic, doncha think?

The same shops that vilified ScubaBoard and the Internet for their downfall are now using Groupon, which is in turn, being vilified for poor instruction of the masses. As someone who has had to confront the negatives wrongly associated to the internet and me in particular, I find this kind of funny. Yes, as in "ha ha" funny and not just overly peculiar.

 

[danvolker]

Its ironic, doncha think?

The same shops that vilified ScubaBoard and the Internet for their downfall are now using Groupon, which is in turn, being vilified for poor instruction of the masses. As someone who has had to confront the negatives wrongly associated to the internet and me in particular, I find this kind of funny. Yes, as in "ha ha" funny and not just overly peculiar.

I think this is showing that the internet can be mis-used, as can traditional medias as well. I have always supported scubaboard, and you, and can't really imagine how you could be villified for what scubaboard has achieved....if you refer to a specific legal battle, you know all of us are behind you on that.

As to the mis-use of groupofcheap, I think it is an extremely powerful way to get people to make a choice primarily because of some huge percieved SAVINGS , and with diving, the mindset needs to be about what is good, and functional...Diving should not be lead with price at the expense and non-existence of all else.


The Internet did not explode as a great method for sleazy marketers like cheapgroups-are-us, to push junk with. It began as a great way to get research information out, then more information, then traditional websites showing services and products, etc. It has evolved, and the cheapgroups-R-us types are now globbing on, and de-evolving the good directions of the net that once dominated....

Just remember back to around 1996...you could do a yahoo search for a company or a product,( if they were on the web yet) , and the actual company would come up in the first 3 responses to your search..... Today, you could get 8 pages of nextag or other third party advertisers, that are NOT the web pages you are looking for---they have overwhelmed the search engines to the point that the company you are looking for can be almost imposible to find.

Right now the cheap-groups-R-us type advertising is a threat.... It is this thinking that has Americans buying junk from Taiwan instead of made in America.....I had a kitchen with appliances in it from 1972, that we finally upgraded to the best we could find at Home Expo in 2006....The made in America appliances from 72 lasted 30 years..the best of the new stuff ( pretty much all with "made in Taiwan" parts) are already on the 2nd or 3rd warranty repair, and are of no where near the quality of the 70's and made in America..... and this is what you get, when you allow the MEDIA to control public perception of value with cheap-groups-R-us type top of mind advertising.

I just dont want to see dive instruction get any closer to "made in Taiwan", just so it can be CHEAPER.

 

[Dustyb]

I admit I used groupon to get certified. My pool class had three students and two instructors. When we went on our certification dives I was in a group of 6 with 2 instructors. I was very impressed and am going back for AOW at full price. All ready got nitrox and peak performance thru them. I know most of the other students are coming back for more too. I can see how bad this could be with some of your posts but it turned out great in my case.

 

[danvolker]

I admit I used groupon to get certified. My pool class had three students and two instructors. When we went on our certification dives I was in a group of 6 with 2 instructors. I was very impressed and am going back for AOW at full price. All ready got nitrox and peak performance thru them. I know most of the other students are coming back for more too. I can see how bad this could be with some of your posts but it turned out great in my case.

In your instance it was used in a good way. Unfortunately, it can be like Oxycontin....just optimal for some situations, but can be terribly missused by those with the wrong agendas.

 

[Zen1300]

Diving should not be lead with price at the expense and non-existence of all else.

Diving is a sport to some, a way of life to others, but it is also a livelihood. The simple fact is business is about money. Ideally, you make the money by providing a quality product, but that alone won't necessarily make it. Costs go up and the shop has to compensate. Sure, I bet some shops are just greedy. The shop makes more money for a given period of time when there are more people in the class. Simple math. Does it mean it is right? No.

The Internet did not explode as a great method for sleazy marketers like cheapgroups-are-us, to push junk with. It began as a great way to get research information out, then more information, then traditional websites showing services and products, etc. It has evolved, and the cheapgroups-R-us types are now globbing on, and de-evolving the good directions of the net that once dominated....

Just like roads were not created for billboards. If the avenue exists, it will be used.

Right now the cheap-groups-R-us type advertising is a threat.... It is this thinking that has Americans buying junk from Taiwan instead of made in America.....I had a kitchen with appliances in it from 1972, that we finally upgraded to the best we could find at Home Expo in 2006....The made in America appliances from 72 lasted 30 years..the best of the new stuff ( pretty much all with "made in Taiwan" parts) are already on the 2nd or 3rd warranty repair, and are of no where near the quality of the 70's and made in America..... and this is what you get, when you allow the MEDIA to control public perception of value with cheap-groups-R-us type top of mind advertising.

I don't think this is what Groupon does. They work with businesses and provide a useful marketing solution that can be more targeted than other methods. The businesses still have to decide for themselves the service and promotion they are going to offer. There is no perceived value other than what the business presents.

I just dont want to see dive instruction get any closer to "made in Taiwan", just so it can be CHEAPER.

This is a dive shop and agency responsibility. I know PADI has a QA process, but I think that putting the requirement of QA on new students with absolutely no idea what to expect is not the best means, but I'm not sure how else this can be done. There must be some level of self-policing.

When a shop has too many students in the class, they severely limit the amount of time that can be spent with each one. If one or two aren't getting it, they will likely not ask questions. If, because of the number of students, the instructor cannot see this clearly or manage it, then the students lose out.

The promotions through Groupon can be configured several ways. A shop may put out a promotion once a month through Groupon and limit it to the first 10 buyers of the Groupon. Even if the shop does not limit it, the shop has the responsibility for scheduling the students and can limit each classroom. It's a business decision.

Whether the actual instructor is any good is a completely different issue entirely.

 

[tomfcrist]

I know PADI has a QA process, but I think that putting the requirement of QA on new students with absolutely no idea what to expect is not the best means, but I'm not sure how else this can be done. There must be some level of self-policing.

PADI has a QA process? Funny I've never seen them actually do anything about Instructors that dont live up to standards of the agency.

 

[furby076]

I don't blame Groupon, nor people looking for the lowest price. Someone trying to find the best price does not mean they have bad intentions, will be poor students, or poor divers. They are just looking for the lowest prices. I always look for the lowest prices - I would be dumb to not do so.

Also, just because Groupon advertises for a scuba school does not mean the scuba school has to "teach" these students all in the same day. They can still have relatively smaller classes.

The blame goes to the scuba school who are being irresponsible and don't understand how Groupon is supposed to work and help a business. Which is, at the very basic level:
1) Groupon makes you set a very low price (to get people)
2) Groupon takes 50% of the cost
3) Company provides the service (which may be at a loss, or a break-even point)

So why would a company be willing to take a loss, or break-even point? It's the same process as a "loss leader" product. Ever been to Staples where they sell a 100-disc spool of CDs at $5 and you think to yourself "but they are losing money"...well now that you are in Staples, they hope they can sell you on their other products where they will NOT lose money.

So, step 4 - the profit - are the students who purchase equipment, come back for additional training, and refer their friends.

The blame resides with the school, not Groupon or the students. In all honesty, the students have no idea and are not being taught properly

 

[furby076]

Groupon earns the other 25% for pressing send.

While Groupons process, well a lot of it, is highly automated (good for them), there are things you are forgetting:
1) Not all of it is automated
2) Building that automation is expensive, and an investment
3) Maintenance and improvement of the automation is expensive
4) Staffing is expensive
5) Hardware (servers, computers, hosting services, and other overhead) is expensive

Let's not begrudge Groupon by saying "earns the other 25% for pressing send"...it's not that simple.

Oh wow. You're right on that. I disabled ABP and sure enough, the link shows up. That's a VERY odd feature to have on a messageboard. Wonder what the rationale is.

Other then what the other person said, ad revenue, I prefer these links. I would rather see this then an annoying pop-up on my screen. It's subtle. A number of sites are converting to it. One car site that I go to links to a tire manufacturer (site sponsor) anytime someone inputs the word "tire". As always you are free to use ad blockers, but remember, that link helps support this message board which you utilize.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

PADI has a QA process? Funny I've never seen them actually do anything about Instructors that dont live up to standards of the agency.

The reason you have never seen it is because it is an internal affair. PADI Professional Membership includes the Undersea Journal, a quarterly publication. In the back of each UJ is the quarterly Quality Management Statistics.

The first UJ I found in my mess is Fourth Quarter 2010:

• Members Expelled.............................2
• Members Suspended..........................3
• Members Retrained or Reoriented.......16
• Members Terminated.........................1

Yes, that's how it's printed; some AI in England was evidently Terminated. :shocked2:

399 "investigations" - 133 "Closed with no further action." 21 PADI Members were placed in "Review" in the Fourth Quarter of 2010.

We get to see 6 full names (see above list), each with location, certification level, member number, when expelled or suspended and when suspension expires. The largest section is Special Notices, which mostly details web sites illegally using PADI in their text or logos.

 

[merxlin]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Posts regarding the Adlink feature in posts have been moved to Site Support for discussion here Adlinks- That is a separate issue from the impact the Groupon process has on instruction.

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