Would you Encourage or Discourage your Child to Enlist?

[Doubles]

i would love to know how you can give advice to your child about the Iraqi war without taking US foreign policy into condideration. if you want to call that political, that's your call

to me, politics is more Bush v. Clinton, or Democrats v. Republicans ... some people have made mention of that in the thread, but note that I don't really care about that

my kid will be dead no matter what the name of the guy in office or his political affiliation. makes no difference to me




do enlighten me, since you know my thinking better than i do ... what is it that i am saying?

that it's bad to ignore generals who need double the troops we have to go into Iraq?

that it's bad to send toops into combat without proper body armor?

that it's bad to have insufficient armored vehicles that can protect infantry from IED's?

that is bad to start a war not knowing the local conditions and the history and religion that will make occupation of that country a virtual impossibility?

that given those circumstances, it's a bad idea for my child to go and get killed in a mistaken war?

that seems like common sense to me, not politics

Andy to me it's not about the war at all. If my daughter wanted to choose a military career I would support her and encourage her. After all I did enlist right in the middle of the Vietnam War. Which was a lot less popular and our service folks didn't get the positive reinforcement they do today (thank god! for this change), and we had a lot more deaths. I dropped out of high school to do it and my Mom supported (had to sign actually) my enlistment. It turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made.

Yep they could die, but they could die tech diving or recreational diving, or just crossing the street.

And there is nothing trivial about anyone dying before there time.

My opinion on your thread - imho if you had posted your recent comments in post #2 the entire thread would have read better to me, and maybe the mods would have left a few more posts in place. From my perspective it now looks like a fishing expedition.

do enlighten me, since you know my thinking better than i do ... what is it that i am saying?

I have seen you post similar statements in more than one thread - maybe it's coincidence or maybe some of us just "read" your posts in the wrong context- maybe you should just enlighten me.

If you want to debate the war and it's policies lets go for it - in a different thread. Trust me - no one has more contempt for Rumsfeld than I do. Of course that would violate the TOS which you are rather familiar with.

Cheers

Steve

 

[redacted]

I sort of like the new "faulty intelligence" excuse for this war. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding whose intelligence it refers to.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

I think the psychiatric term for our government's problem is disjunctive (disassociative?) cognition.

I prefer the more medical sounding terminology: Cranianalitis. *ahem* :light: :mooner:

 

[mdb]

Lamont: Thank you for referring Andrew Bacevich's book. It is already in my library. I agree completely with his premise.

After serving in Vietnam I was selected for augmentation into the regular Marine Corps. I was assigned as a General Staff officer @ The Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. A cush job. Most of us reserve officers went on to finish our four year obligation in the 1st or 2nd Marine Divisions. Places like the Recruit Depots or DC were, usually, filled with USNA grads and "fast trackers", the career Marines. I asked the Colonel in charge of personnel why I was in San Diego: "Well Lt., we need some "civilians" to keep us in line."

We now have over 120,000 "contractors" in Irag. These are simply mercenaries paid at $100,000+ per annum from "our" defense budget. Their casualty figures do not show up in the DOD stats.

If the draft were implemented tomorrow this whole debate would change instantly. Instead of watching American Idol, or wondering what Paris Hilton is doing, the majority of citizens would now have to consider if it was worth it for their sons and daughters to go to war. And if so, why?

 

[Cacia]

If the draft were implemented tomorrow this whole debate would change instantly. Instead of watching American Idol, or wondering what Paris Hilton is doing, the majority of citizens would now have to consider if it was worth it for their sons and daughters to go to war. And if so, why?

But then the guys who want to do that job have to deal with the ones that do not want to be there. That has to drag you down in combat, dealing with them, no?

I wonder about the "against my will" factor in PTSD. I just can't imagine anything worse than being in war with guys that don't have the mindset. Because the team they have is what gets them through it and keeps them sane from what I see/hear.

Were the guys in Viet Nam that *almost* went to Canada a liabilty or did they get on the program okay? I wonder mental health, post war, is related to the mindset of the person there.

 

[Wayward Son]

I think the military is better by being an all volunteer force. but there is still the question of whether a draft would be better for society & cause them to make better decisions?

Well, we had the draft all the way through Viet Nam. Based on that history, I'd have to conclude that I don't think so. I dunno, I could be wrong about that. I was too young during those years to be able to evaluate it with any competency based on my personal observations & experiences.

 

[mdb]

But then the guys who want to do that job have to deal with the ones that do not want to be there. That has to drag you down in combat, dealing with them, no?

I wonder about the "against my will" factor in PTSD. I just can't imagine anything worse than being in war with guys that don't have the mindset. Because the team they have is what gets them through it and keeps them sane from what I see/hear.

Catherine: During the Vietnam war the USMC drafted. Some Marine Sgt. went to the induction center and pointed to some poor souls: "You, you and you" and these young men were now headed to the Marines.

In 1970 I was part of a study group that attempted to evaluate any differences between enlisted and drafted Marines. After a year of work, looking at desertion rates, sick bay records, valor awards etc., we could not find one difference. If anything the draftee pool came out slightly ahead since they, as a group, were better educated-the famous Harvard PFC-I actually knew one.

As you must know by now, in combat the fight is for each other. It makes no difference at all. I've lived it. The "slackers" can be some bravado type who signed up with a fresh ink tattoo. I would put my money on the draftee. Just personal experience.

 

[Cacia]

After a year of work, looking at desertion rates, sick bay records, valor awards etc., we could not find one difference.

wow, amazing. Even desertion rates? Hmm, my dad used to have to go and pick those guys up, he hated it. So..you must think Marines have PTDS and just don't make claims? Because the claims numbers do not jive with who is actually in combat, how would you explain that?

 

[mdb]

wow, amazing. Even desertion rates? Hmm, my dad used to have to go and pick those guys up, he hated it. So..you must think Marines have PTDS and just don't make claims? Because the claims numbers do not jive with who is actually in combat, how would you explain that?

Yep, I think lots of Marines have PTSD and don't make claims. It is the culture. In Vietnam the famous saying was: "don't mean nothing."

After three+ combat tours they all, IMO, have some PTSD. Watching someone you know well, and just talked to moments ago, turn into a collection of body parts affects most normal human beings. Seeing it time after time takes its toll.

The claims numbers do not, again IMO, reflect the true toll. These men and women will be dealing with it the rest of their lives.

 

[mdb]

double post