would you put a inexperienced diver on this dive

[MXGratefulDiver]

My first(and so far, only, though that's about to change) dive to 134', was my 20th dive, on the deep dive specialty course. 28C(77F) in the water, not much less once we hit the thermocline at around 120-125', great vis above thermocline, about 2-3' vis below it, no current. Group of 8 students and two instructors, and a bottom we could sit on, at 134'. This was a training dive on AL80s.

... what did you learn on that dive?

One of the very first things I teach my students about deep diving is how to plan for adequate reserves in case something goes wrong during the deep portion of the dive.

To my concern, diving to 134 feet on an AL80 violates that principle ... every time.

This is especially true with new divers, who will almost always be blowing through their air supply rather quickly, and who will almost never have the buoyancy control needed to make a direct ascent to the surface from that depth with anything like control. Did your instructor do any gas consumption measurements? Did you even know what your consumption rate was prior to doing the dive? Or did you simply rely on watching your gauge. At 134 feet, did you even remember to look at your gauge? A lot of divers ... especially new ones ... wouldn't. They'd trust their instructor to do it for them.

Before taking students to that sort of depth, instructors are supposed to be teaching them about the risks, and how to plan the dive appropriately ... otherwise, all you're really learning is how to be dependent upon someone else for your safety ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kaerius]

I knew what my aproximate consumption was from experience('d been doing a couple of days of 4 fun dives a day before the course), we were told maximum bottom time down there was 6 minutes(IE: 2 minutes NDL remaining), I did learn a little bit about being narced, it can be subtle(I was not aware of being narced, and was very focused on my dive plan, and making very regular checks of my dive computer and pressure gauge). Due to the bad vis I didn't notice when the rest started their ascent, so I checked my computer(3 minutes NDL, I've got my minute to look around), and looked around for them, basically everything textbook. What didn't enter my mind was that I could've just ascended 5-10 feet and looked for bubbles coming out of the thermocline. In other words I was suffering from a bit of rigid thinking. Then the DMT came down and yanked my hair, I asked "up?" and he answered in the affirmative, my computer beeped for reaching 2 minutes to NDL as we left the thermocline.

We also had a memory/thinking test at depth, which comprised of remembering a number told at the surface, and the instructor would hold up a number of fingers at depth and you were to hold up remaining fingers. Easy, and I did not feel narced, though as I said I probably was(rigid thinking).

And yes we had extensive teaching about risks, signs to look out for, and so on, and we all planned out our dives personally. We were all taught that it was our own responsibility to plan our dive and dive our plan.

I still have the profile in my dive log as well. 8 at 40m, 6 at 24m, total time 21 minutes(unlisted time is at the safety stop and droptank excercise, all times are until hitting the next depth, so 8 minutes at 40m is including ascent to 24m). Basically this was a bounce dive. Exit PG K.

I'd done OW+AOW+Rescue before this point, and had my DMT orientation that same morning.

 

[flots am]

currents and to a mod of 134' in the atlantic with 1/2 of there equipment being new to them with 0 dives on this equipment. Personally i like this diver and would hate to see them get into trouble .

The first two rules of "not getting killed underwater" are

1. Don't be a dumb-ass
2. Don't dive with dumb-asses.

The instructor is violating #1 and your friend is violating #2.

Flots.

 

[Codiak]

Reading between the lines of the OP:
1) Person is going to do the dive
2) Person has heard opposing view and still #1

Since you haven't talked him out of it... what has him talked into it?
What is at 134' that is so interesting?
Is this just an ego trip?
Is he trying to make himself feel better after the initial issues?
Is this the Instructor trying to prove something to him?

Diving is at your own risk, but that risk should be justifiable.

Try a different tack with him.

 

[ligersandtions]

I have a friend....his first dive out of OW was a night / lobster hunting dive. It was his fifth dive ever, it was his first night dive ever, and it was a hunting dive, where (almost every time) it becomes a solo dive. He told me he was going to do this and I desperately tried to convince him that it was a very bad idea and that he just wasn't ready for it. His dive shop convinced him that everything would be fine, so he went on the dive. Turns out, everything was fine....that time.

With less than 10 lifetime dives (and on his wife's first dive outside of OW), this same shop convinced them that it was a grand idea to go out to the oil rigs....where the bottom is hundreds of feet down. Again, I pleaded with them trying to convince them it was not a good idea....and again, they ignored my advice and went. The wife scared the crap out of herself but the husband was pretty oblivious to any potential issues. In the end, they made it back on the boat with no major issues.

Does this mean that they should have made these dives? I certainly don't think so. I think it was too much too soon. But when you have an instructor convincing you that it's fine, you're pretty hard-pressed to claim to know they're wrong.

The thing is....when everything goes right, these divers can come back saying "told ya!". But when the fit hits the shan, those same divers are going to be the ones becoming statistics. I do what I can to warn naive divers (and I do what I can to heed any warnings given to me)....but sometimes there's just no convincing and the best you can do is hope.

I'm glad you expressed your concerns to the diver in question. Maybe point him to this thread and let him get an idea of how many more experienced divers think this is a dive that should not be taken lightly (and should not be done until he gains some more experience in more benign locations).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Anybody who thinks it's OK to trust an instructor who tells you "It's OK, everything will be fine" needs to read this thread ... Chad's body was found 10 months later, sticking out of the mud at 205 feet ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Karel26]

I don't want to be his dive buddy or DM or even one of the divers in the group. .I still would like to dive for the next 30years. . I am no professional yet, but i konw i don't want to be with him in the water. . But hey, some people learn only on the hard way. .

Live to dive and Dive to live. . . . :burnout:

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Or this thread where a "dive guide" who happened to be an instructor took two newly certed divers, two other buddy pairs, and a 17 yr old kid who had not been in the water for a year on a PLANNED 100 ft wall dive.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html


One of the newly certed died after shooting from 302 feet to the surface in 2 minutes after bouncing at 342. DM's, Guides, and Instructors who say trust me I do this all the time you don;t need to plan are liars and, in some cases to me, killers. I will not dive with anyone who does not actively participate in the dive plan in a knowledgeable way and this includes new divers. I'm doing checkouts this weekend with OW divers. Tonite is the last classroom here at my house.

We will grill burgers, eat, and then review for the final exam they'll take tonite. After we go over that THEY will plan their dives for this weekend. I'll give em depths, conditions, and water temps. The rest is up to them. We will then review the plans and if acceptable to everyone dive them on Saturday and Sunday. Friday we meet at the shop where THEY will select their gear, decide how much weight they will need, and help fill their tanks if they are renting em from the shop.

I always have an extra set of gear and extra weights but it is not up to me to decide what they need. It is all part of the learning experience. Dive planning begins long before the arrival on site. Your friend seems not to have gotten that.

 

[pnw_diver]

No effing way would I want anything to do with this situation.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Consider this,you have a new diver who has just certified in ow and going for there aow and had major trouble in there checkout dives with clearing(nose bleeding,dizziness,ear pain) and some buoyancy control issues. This diver has not made any dives since there checkout dive but are going to do a dive with strong currents and to a mod of 134' in the atlantic with 1/2 of there equipment being new to them with 0 dives on this equipment. Personally i like this diver and would hate to see them get into trouble .I mentioned some of the conditions and possible issues where as they could get separated from the dm and or the instructor (visibility can go away quickly on this wreck site)and be on their own. They have never used or shot a smb and did not know what a finger spool was for etc. Am i wrong for thinking this is to much to soon ?

I agree that this dive is to advanced at this time for this diver .I said my peace to this diver and i think he has been convinced "that this will be no big deal trust me i won,t let anything go wrong".I think a diver is ultimately responsible for themselves and their own safety .I,m sure every diver has seen what a trust me dive can come to as some divers have barely made it or have lost their life in the process .I can think of one such situation when 3 experienced cave divers entered a cave and 1 had never dived the cave before and in his words this was a trust me dive where the other 2 diver said they knew their way and chose to not run a line in a offshoot they took and became disoriented in this off shoot and became lost.fortunately they made their way out with 150 psi left between them.You do not comemuch closer to the reaper than that. I hope this diver can hear me saying do you think your ready for this dive and puts some more thought into their decision.I will not say anymore to this diver ,since they are a adult and the choice is theirs.

I will not mention any names as you can see by the way i presented this thread as i know who is going to take them there and how many times they have dived the site . the fact remains that even being with very experienced tech divers if you become seperated from their experience and knowledge that you are relying on to keep you safe and you know in the open ocean this is very possible in a 4 -6 knot current what do you think the new diver would do (panic ?).I would think when you start wreck diving you would want to do some of the inshore wrecks in the 50-60 foot range with mild current and great visibility and far more ndl time to work with and gas management issues would be more forgiving if you had small issues with decent considering the new diver will be diving wet at 134', in a 5 mil on a single 80 tank not the best way to start in my inexperienced opinion.Not for meMaybe i am making to much of the situation.

Lynn,

I would not say this person is important to me but i like the diver.For a person to tell me this plan just blows my mind ,that reasoning and common sense are set aside so easily for some reason and it is beyond my nature to not at least say something to sway their actions.I have a feeling this is not going to end well for anybody.I always thought there was a reason that we all crawl,walk, then run and when we fall learning these motor skills we get up and try again .If you fall at 134' in 51 degree water with minimum gas supply with no experience i am pretty sure your not going to get the chance to ever get up again.My hope is that the dive operation there chartered with catch this and put a stop to this accident waiting to happen as the boat crew is one of the better dive operations in n.c.

Please understand that I am in no way condoning a 5th dive to 134' with 51 degree water, 4-6 knot currents and limited visibility, even if there were no issues with the OW check out dives.

What I am pointing out is there just seems to be some missing information and some misinformation. Above is every word we have to work with regarding this dive/thread.

How many recreational divers have done a scooter dive with at least a 2.5 mph scooter (Apollo/Dacor AV-1 or better)? 2.5 mph is less than 2.5 knots. I have made wreck dives in strong current, but never in current that seemed stronger than scootering speed. On an Apollo scooter that claims a speed of 2.5 mph, if you turn your head perpendicular to your direction of travel your reg free flows and your mask floods, unless you dial down your second and tighten your mask more than normal. Are non-drift recreational dives really being made in 4-6 knot currents? Are recreational drift dives even being made in 4-6 knot currents?

A wreck dive with a hard bottom of 134' does not mean the wreck is unsuitable for AOW Deep dives. The USCGC Bibb lies on it's Starboard side in +130' water off Key Largo. My computer read 137" when I shot the pic of the Grouper below. With a 41' beam, the port gunnel is ~96' deep; the entire main deck on the port side of the house is less than 110' deep. Nearby, the USCGC Duane sits upright in +120' water; the main deck was 108' on my computer for my AOW Deep dive. PADI allows dives to up to 110' deep for AOW, as long as the instructor asks for and receives permission. Here in Hawaii, off Oahu, the Sea Tiger is the deepest recreational wreck dive in the State, with sand at the bow +120'; the top of the house may only be 60' deep, you do not have to go to the sand. Do you have to go to 134' on this Atlantic wreck dive?

If the dive was not more than 100' deep, what would the water temp be?

USCGC Bibb; shallowest point - ~95' (?)


USCGC Bibb; under the house - ~137' (!)

By the by, Adam is 6' tall and I might have been closer to him than the grouper! ​