YMCA, this may be the way to go!

[MikeFerrara]

Butch103 once bubbled...
Mike design your own course (which would encompass the minimums of PADI) and turn out the divers that you feel comfortable unleashing on the wetunderworld.....

I can imagine that this will be more costly to offer (more pool time etc), but if you can show a comparison between your course and your "competitors", with yours being more encompassing.......

BTW Mike could you (this is an open ended thought on my part) not offer a combination OW and AOW all in one ?? It seems to me that the AOW is just a continuim of the OW ( at least with PADI)............

We have in a sense designed our own course. In that our standards are a good deal higher than the bigger many others. I does cost more. Some student only want what is faster and cheaper while others rave endlessly about the class (after seeing others in OW). I charge more than most but have recently offered a money back garantee.

We do of course offer OW and AOW as a package as well as other packages.

Walter,
I would need to do some research before even addressing that possibility.

SSI insists you teach for a shop? The best instructors I know flat out refuse to teach for a shop. If I ever get out from under my shop and if I still teach it absolutly will not be for a shop. The last thing I want is for somebody who needs to sell gear telling me how to teach. I get far too much of that as a shop owner. I almost wonder if instruction and equipment sales belong in the same building. No, I'm sure of it, it doesn't.

 

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I almost wonder if instruction and equipment sales belong in the same building. No, I'm sure of it, it doesn't.

Perhaps that would be the best of both worlds - a scuba school with the up-line accountablilty of the SSI system but without the gear shop. But within the context of today's reality, they are irrevocably tied together and I believe the SSI system is the best one currently in place to assure quality and accountability in training. Maybe someday we can divorce the training from the gear sales, but it'll be the internet market that forces the industry, kicking and screaming and clawing, into that scenario rather than any intentional move within the training agencies...
Rick

 

[Walter]

zboss,

"for example the use of other organizations dive tables; which makes it difficult to dive with them sometimes."

Unless you want to use DCIEM tables, you'd be better off using the Y tables. Y tables are more conservative, in most instances, than other tables I've reviewed. DCIEM tables are the most conservative I've reviewed, PADI's RDP is the most liberal I've examined.

Rick,

I agree with Mike again. Shop supervision of instructors is usually a very bad idea, IMHO. I've never liked that aspect of SSI or NASDS.

Mike,

Contact Thomas Leaird if you are interested in researching this area. He is the chairman of the National SCUBA Committee and he lives in your grand state. You'll find him in Muncie. http://www.ymcascuba.org/ymcascub/indiana.html
I'm positive you'll enjoy meeting Tom even if you decide not to crossover. He's a great guy, not at all abrasive, as I can be at times.

 

[DiverBuoy]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I almost wonder if instruction and equipment sales belong in the same building. No, I'm sure of it, it doesn't.

Do you have a plan? When potential students (who are progeny of 'just in time' economics in this commerical fast food country) are out shopping won't they be drawn toward the one stop shop that does it all. They would be too ignorant to be discerning.

 

[Walter]

DiverBuoy,

"When potential students (who are progeny of 'just in time' economics in this commerical fast food country) are out shopping won't they be drawn toward the one stop shop that does it all. They would be too ignorant to be discerning."

It's worse than that. when they do take the time to shop, they look for the cheapest and fastest.

My market is the discerning shopper. Cheapest and fastest is welcome to the vast majority of the market.

 

[JT2]

SSI insists you teach for a shop? The best instructors I know flat out refuse to teach for a shop.

This is definitely the case where I live. I am sure that there are exceptions, and I do not doubt that Mr.Murchison as well as others are excellent instructors even though they are associated with shops, I do however think that is the exception and certainly not the rule.

PS Does anyone know where there is a website that shows a comparison of all the different agencies tables?

 

[zboss]

Walter once bubbled...
zboss,

"for example the use of other organizations dive tables; which makes it difficult to dive with them sometimes."

Unless you want to use DCIEM tables, you'd be better off using the Y tables. Y tables are more conservative, in most instances, than other tables I've reviewed. DCIEM tables are the most conservative I've reviewed, PADI's RDP is the most liberal I've examined.

It has nothing to do with the tables it has to do with teamwork. One could hardly agrue the fact that so little divers, not matter their training, actually get bent... so the choice of the table, IMHO, should NOT be the most conservative at all, but the most liberal to allow for a wider range of diving time. Anyhow.. this discussion is not about the tables per se, but about the snobbishness of YMCA divers whom, in the end, exhibit no more or less capability of diving than an equivelent diver from another organization.

 

[JT2]

.. this discussion is not about the tables per se, but about the snobbishness of YMCA divers whom, in the end, exhibit no more or less capability of diving than an equivelent diver from another organization.

Hey zboss, that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, however, the fact is that the YMCA OW class is a more extensive class than most if not all others. There are as we have all said before, bad instructors in every agency, and the individuals you are talking about obviously had one of those bad instructors.

 

[zboss]

I am not really convinced that a couple of extra hours in a pool and one more open water dive makes training anymore extensive. However - what you state about the trainer VERY true. Ultimately - it lay with the instructor to not sign c-cards for those students that do not exhibit the proper skills or competency.

 

[Walter]

JT2

A comparison of tables is more difficult than a comparison of standards. Repetitive diving is key how conservative/liberal a table might be. Comparing repetitive dives is what makes it difficult. I'll be happy to share a comparison of NDL's for various tables.

Listed from most conservative to most liberal at each depth (ties in alphabetical order)

40' -- 130 min (tie) Spencer & NAUI; 135 min Michigan; 140 min PADI; 150 min YMCA; 175 min DCIEM and 200 min US Navy.

50' -- 70 min Spencer; 75 min (tie) DCIEM & Michigan; 80 min (tie) NAUI, PADI & YMCA; and 100 min US Navy.

60' -- 50 min (tie) DCIEM, Michigan, Spencer & YMCA; 55 min (tie) NAUI & PADI and 60 min US Navy.

70' -- 35 min DCIEM; 40 min (tie) Michigan, PADI, Spencer & YMCA; 45 min NAUI and 50 min US Navy.

80' -- 25 min DCIEM; 30 min (tie) Michigan, PADI, Spencer & YMCA; 35 min NAUI and 40 min US Navy.

90' -- 20 min (tie) DCIEM & YMCA; 25 min (tie) Michigan, NAUI, PADI & Spencer and 30 min US Navy.

100' -- 15 min DCIEM; 18 min YMCA; 20 min (tie) Michigan, PADI & Spencer; 22 min NAUI and 25 min US Navy.

110' -- 12 min DCIEM; 13 min YMCA; 15 min (tie) Michigan, NAUI & Spencer; 16 min PADI and 20 min US Navy.

120' -- 10 min (tie) DCIEM, Michigan, Spencer & YMCA; 12 min NAUI; 13 min PADI and 15 min US Navy.

130' -- 5 min (tie) Michigan, Spencer & YMCA; 8 min (tie) DCIEM & NAUI and 10 min (tie) PADI & US Navy.

Spencer is not a set of tables, but rather a set doppler tests that showed where silent (no symptoms) bubbles were not present.

NAUI tables clear after 24 hours, DCIEM after 18 hours, Michigan, US Navy & YMCA after 12 hours and PADI after 6 hours. PADI's tables are also known as the RDP. Repetitive dives can drastically change the ranking.