Zeagle Quick Deploy 6.0 cu ft bail-out bottle

[Soggy]

I'd be interested if next time your out if you could switch to your pony just before commencing your ascent.
( From 30m/100ft preferably)

Do your normal safety stop and switch back to your primary if/when you run out of air but gather as much info as you can along the way like starting depth, ascent rate, number of breaths you got and your SAC if known.

Again, what *useful* information would this provide? That you can do a direct ascent from 100ft with no stress? What can I do with that information?

You can't fake stress....the math doesn't lie. Number of breaths is irrelevant, as well, since that is dependent upon individual lung capacity. All that matters is your SAC rate and your ascent rate.

Don't mind Soggy, he's got a real bee in his bonnet about these little pony bottles. Just between you and me, I think he's got shares in a cylinder manufacturer that doesn't make anything smaller than a 30cuft!! Ha ha!!

I just hate when people kludge up things and solve non existent problems by bringing their ba-ba with them. It's a false sense of security that can lead to larger problems.

You know, Spare Air makes a manifolded 6cft version. Then you have redundant bailout .

 

[Soggy]

Soggy,
Sorry this has ruffled your feather so! You are making a broad, incorrect, assumption that everything I say is the reaction to some problem solving activity.

Shouldn't it? If there is no problem, there is no need for a solution. Clearly you have done the things the way you do them to eliminate perceived problems. Otherwise, you are just randomly adding gear for no reason. Perhaps this is a semantic discussion.

I trim my weight because I want to carry no more weight than I need to, if I had 10lbs of excess gear on for a dive, I would shed 10lbs of lead.

I apologize...to me, it sounded like you were saying that you *moved* 1 lb from one side to the other in order to offset the weight of the cylinder.

As far a a relief valve being a problem, I disagree and BTW every cylinder has a pressure relief valve.

Yeah, a lot of people plug those. They are a failure point. They also take 5/3rds pressure to burst (5000psi in a set of Al80s), and we have a manifold to isolate them. There is also has never been an incident that I'm aware of where the burst disk has blown underwater -- it tends to happen during filling.

It sounds like you are talking about a LP OPV, like you would put on an argon bottle. It is a *fact* that they are an additional failure point. That cannot be argued. They leak all the time and need to be replaced frequently. If your pony bottle is stored in a place that you cannot see it, or in a case of some sort, you might not even know that it has been leaking the entire dive until you try to use it. That OPV is a necessity when you have no other pressure relief source (like in a drysuit) and it is also necessary if you have one of those off switches (again, an additional failure point) on the second stage because gas can no longer vent through the 2nd stage if your IP raises too high. The thing is, you have added these two devices when all you need to do is keep the valve off until needed. Then the other two things can go away, increasing the reliability of the device. You said that you had difficulty turning the knob under pressure, and I don't see what you mean by that.

My focus is having a safe, enjoyable experience diving.

Mine, too. That's what it's all about...fun! That's why we minimize all the risk we can by teamwork, gear standardization, and training. The goal is to bring more reliable skills, more reliable minimal equipment, and more reliable teammates into the water. That gives me the peace of mind required to enjoy the dive.

 

[Soggy]

dupe, oops...

 

[Soggy]

We're going to do the math again, in an attempt to solidify my point. This might be pointless, since some seem to think that the math doesn't tell the whole story. For this type of thing, it does.

Let's take a relaxed diver at a .5 SAC rate at 100 fsw. This is not a realistic breathing rate for me (I'm more of a .6-.65 normally), but I'm going to be *really* liberal for now.

It's going to take a minute or so to solve your problem.

1 minute @ 100ft = 4ATA x .5cft = 2 cft (1/3 of your supply)

We're going to ascend at 30ft a minute from 100ft to 15 ft. That will take 2.5 minutes at an average depth of 60 ft.

1 minute @ 60 ft = 3 ATA x .5cft = 1.5 cft

You *could* blow off your safety stop, though I wouldn't recommend it, and go straight up, using another .5cft. Congratulations, you've successfully made it to the surface with no stress, no exertion, no safety stop, and an unreasonably low SAC rate for many people and used only 4 cft of your 6cft available. For the sake of argument, let's add that safety stop, since you probably ran out of air at the end of your dive.

3 minutes @ 15ft = 1.5 ATA x .5cft = 2.25 cft

Whew! You just barely made it. You were drawing a vacuum on the tank, but you made it. (This is the result that I expect from the "test"). That's with a .5 SAC..a pretty good SAC rate by any standards. With a .75, which is pretty normal for most recreational divers...especially those that are newer, you ran out of air along your way, just a little shallower.

Now, add stress. You just ran out of air, so you're, understandably somewhat perturbed. Your buddy abandoned you, apparently (or you wouldn't need the 6cft bottle), so you're not feeling the love right now. During your ascent, you dump a little too much gas out of your BC, so you now are swimming up and exerting yourself. Double your SAC rate. Probably even more. You ran out of air (for the second time) at about 60 ft. So, now you are doing a CESA anyhow.

You also surfaced 200ft from the boat because you didn't think that you might need enough gas to get back to the anchor line. You're drifting away and don't have anything to breathe on the surface and have choppy seas smacking you in the face.

How are you feeling about that tiny pony bottle now?


Now, let's create a realistic scenario. You're diving from an anchored vessel. You swim out 200ft or so (to the end of the wreck, another part of the reef, etc). You run out of air. Your buddy is nowhere to be found. "That's ok...I have my Zeagle Quick Deploy 6cft Bailout(c)(tm)(R)!" You turn it on and off you go.

A really fast swimming pace is in the realm of 75-100ft a minute, but you're going to be exerting yourself. Your .5cft rate just turned into a 1 because you are freaked out and the 1 turned into a 1.5 because you are swimming as fast as you can to the anchor line. Let's see...

200 ft / 100ft/min = 2 minutes

100ft = 4 ATA x 1.5 cft/min * 2 minutes = 12 cft.

DOH! You're out of gas again and you haven't even left the bottom. And you're out of breath. Hope you practiced your CESAs recently!

Do yourself a favor...get a tank that carries enough gas to actually help you out and ebay that 6cft thing.

How's that for beating the dead horse??

 

[ProMed]

We're going to ascend at 30ft a minute from 100ft to 15 ft. That will take 2.5 minutes at an average depth of 60 ft

If I understand correctly, based on your calculations, the 6 cu ft should be more than enough using a 60 ft/min ascent rate w/o a safety stop? Others have mentioned that ascent rate a few times in this thread for an OOA scenario, referenced to the Navy dive tables.

Is that correct?

 

[highflier]

I am a noobie, But I am going to the surface with if I only got 6' of air left. Then I will use surface air to fill my BC using my lungs to create the presure needed, then swim for the boat. Of course the boat crew will miscount heads and leave without me. I may be adrift and alive for the time being, as opposed to exploding my lungs from holding my breath on a 0' air accent. (cause I totally paniced).

BTW my OW training did have me and dive buddy to do a AOO accent from 30'. Really was not any problem at all. Since we all have opinions, here are mine.

1) For rec diving in 60' or less well away from Deco limits, 6' would seem to be adequate.
2) Deeper diving where you are in or close to Deco limits, Then carry more gas.

My thoughts are that in a AOO situtation mother nature tells up go up for air, We never know how we will react. Thus all theory means nothing unless you have experienced it and know how you react.

I am suprised that other have not posted a XX' foot of gas based on depth Something like

6' pony for 50' bottom
13' pony for 75' bottom
30' pony for 100' bottom

If Diving in a Deco situation I would make sure I have a second that gives me full deco accent capabilities,

Highflier

PS. Here is your chance to Flame a Newbie.
PSS. For the cost diff of the 6' to 13' it well make sense to get a 13' and not the 6' pony