True & frustrating

[Walter]

The level of training is not determined by the location of the instructors business. There are good instructors both teaching out of established shops and their basements, there is no correlation.

It's far from absolute. There are excellent instructors teaching at shops, some of them are on this board. If anyone thought I meant to say that was not the case, I apologize. There are also independent instructors who are incompetent. All I'm saying is most of the pressure to cut corners in classes comes from shop owners. All shop owners don't do it, but a whole bunch of them do.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I haven't recieved any trainging from an independent because up to this point I've had a store available and prefer store based instructors. Until I get any kind of training from an independent instructor I'm just going to stick with what I know and prefer, unless an opportunity arrises where I can take a class that my shop isn't offering but an independent instructor is.

Well, make sure to compare apples to apples ... for instance, I teach an AOW class (NAUI calls it "Advanced Scuba Diver") that isn't something you're likely to get at a dive shop. Oh, sure, you can get a class by that name at your local dive shop ... but mine's not something they're likely to offer simply because it would cost them too much to offer it. It involves multiple class sessions and a minimum of six dives ... I say "minimum" because each dive has specific objectives, and you won't "pass" that dive until you achieve the objectives. It's not uncommon for some students to do more than a dozen dives before the class is over. A dive shop won't generally be willing to invest that kind of time and effort into a class that they can only charge $300 for. But my students are motivated to seek me out, because they want the quality of training that the course offers.

Not all courses are the same ... even if they're called by the same name. And what really determines the quality of the class is the effort put into it by both the instructor and the student.

I'm glad you have a shop that meets your needs. But most new divers don't really understand what their needs are ... there's a truism in this sport that "you don't know what you don't know". And, unfortunately, an awful lot of divers come to realize over time ... and through experience ... that what they at first considered a quality education (because instructors are taught to tell them all the "right" things) turns out not to meet their needs very well after all ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cerich]

The majority of all Instructors are themselves taught by Independent Instructor Trainers and Course Directors.

Just something to think about...

 

[ssidiv3r]

Not all courses are the same ... even if they're called by the same name. And what really determines the quality of the class is the effort put into it by both the instructor and the student.

I'm glad you have a shop that meets your needs. But most new divers don't really understand what their needs are ... there's a truism in this sport that "you don't know what you don't know". And, unfortunately, an awful lot of divers come to realize over time ... and through experience ... that what they at first considered a quality education (because instructors are taught to tell them all the "right" things) turns out not to meet their needs very well after all ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I know. Unfortunately a lot of times people will look at two different courses and wonder why one takes so much longer even though they have similar names. People that want quality training should explore different avenues but not necessarily cut corners. There are a lot of courses that meet peoples needs for starting out but if they want further training they might need to switch it up

 

[Thalassamania]

This has got to be internet diving at its most ridiculous. Here we have someone who knows little, or nothing, about the activity (diving instruction), pontificating about where the best instruction is available (LDS), with no supporting arguments beyond, "it's my opinion," and assumptions that are so devoid of reality as to be dismissible with naught but a wave or the hand. In the end this person even states that he has no experience what-so-ever with that which he was denigrating:

... I haven't recieved any trainging from an independent because up to this point I've had a store available and prefer store based instructors. Until I get any kind of training from an independent instructor I'm just going to stick with what I know and prefer, unless an opportunity arrises where I can take a class that my shop isn't offering but an independent instructor is.

None so far. All the instructors I know are store-based

The best advice I can give you is to calm down, broaden your experiences, and them, someday, when you're comfortable measuring your bottom time in hours rather than minutes, you'll understand.

 

[ssidiv3r]

This has got to be internet diving at its most ridiculous. Here we have someone who knows little, or nothing, about the activity (diving instruction), pontificating about where the best instruction is available (LDS), with no supporting arguments beyond, "it's my opinion," and assumptions that are so devoid of reality as to be dismissible with naught but a wave or the hand. In the end this person even states that he has no experience what-so-ever with that which he was denigrating:
The best advice I can give you is to calm down, broaden your experiences, and them, someday, when you're comfortable measuring your bottom time in hours rather than minutes, you'll understand.

I'm not trying to insinuate that I know everything about diving instruction. I admit that I'm new to the professional aspect of diving, but as an "instructor" you should at least be making an effort to educate me with facts and reasons rather than "denigrating" my opinion with no supporting arguments aside from "read my profile". Give a reason why you disagree with my point of view. Explain to me what I'm wrong about.

Also, I NEVER said that the best instruction is at an LDS. Maybe you missed it so I'll post it again,

I understand that there are highly experienced instructors that choose not to work through a shop...

And maybe it's sound better coming from some one else?

The level of training is not determined by the location of the instructors business. There are good instructors both teaching out of established shops and their basements, there is no correlation.

The advantage of getting instruction from an established shop is there may be more insurance available should something go horribly wrong.

I don't think that just because somebody makes the choice to work independently that they are bad instructors. I'm not averse to taking courses from an independent instructor, it's just that I so far haven't needed to.

Whatever "assumptions" I have should be brought to my attention and an explanation given as to why they are wrong. Again, give me a reason why you disagree so that I can learn. To make things clear "opinions" are no where near "assumptions". My opinion right now is that I wouldn't want to take a course from an instructor that depreciates the lower levels of experience of others' (especially when that same instructor was, at one point in time, just as inexperienced as the person he is belittling).

Although my experience is realatively small compared to others, I jump at every opportunity to learn and I appreciate help.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm not trying to insinuate that I know everything about diving instruction. I admit that I'm new to the professional aspect of diving,

"Equipment Manager" is not yet a "professional" title, even in this squirrel industry. Maybe there's a new certification I've not heard about yet?

but as an "instructor" you should at least be making an effort to educate me with facts and reasons rather than "denigrating" my opinion with no supporting arguments aside from "read my profile".

No, not really. I'm not you instructor, in fact I doubt if I'd be willing to take you on as a student ... I'm a bit picky. So, I have neither an obligation to educate you, nor a duty to see that your needs for intellectual growth are taken care of in any way, you buttered your bed, lie in it.

Give a reason why you disagree with my point of view. Explain to me what I'm wrong about.

Why? Others already have.

Although my experience is realatively small compared to others, I jump at every opportunity to learn and I appreciate help.

Talk is cheap, in fact here it's free, and worth every penny.

 

[ssidiv3r]

"Equipment Manager" is not yet a "professional" title, even in this squirrel industry. Maybe there's a new certification I've not heard about yet?

I'm entering dive con class. Like I said, everybody has been unexperienced or untrained before, even all-mighty you

No, not really. I'm not you instructor, in fact I doubt if I'd be willing to take you on as a student ... I'm a bit picky. So, I have neither an obligation to educate you, nor a duty to see that your needs for intellectual growth are taken care of in any way, you buttered your bed, lie in it.

You're not exactly setting a good image of independent instructors (not including folks like Bob and Walter, they're fine IMHO). This is another reason I prefer store based instructors. The ones I know are at least willing to help others when they have questions, whether they taught them or not. They also are never snide to someone just because they have an opposing view.

Why? Others already have.

I don't recall seeing anybody give a reason why YOU disagree with me, but who cares anyway

Talk is cheap, in fact here it's free, and worth every penny.

Think what you want, personally I dgaf

 

[Jim Lapenta]

In addition you are not allowed to teach out of the confines of a shop with SSI. When you start realizing the time you put in and the amount of compensation you receive your views may change as well. I had my old OW Instructor say it was a shame I went to the YMCA and now SEI program instead of PADI. Because he;s busy and could use another good instructor. I asked him how much me would give me per student had I went the way he wanted me to. He said 100 bucks. Pool, classroom, and checkouts. Since he has "lots" of students I'd do pretty good. I said not as good as the 280 plus I get now per student and I teach when I want to, who I want to, and how I want to. And I get the profit from the course materials. Oh I'd also get a 15% pro discount on everything and key man when he felt it was warranted. Wow!! Almost as good as the cost plus shipping and tax I get now from 2 other shops I work with on everything and any key man specials they get offered.

His offer would have forced me to rush people thru, make them pay for learning alot of the material themselves(stupid IMO), and follow his rules as to how much info I could give them. Idea- the less you give in OW the more they need to come back and spend money on useless classes that could have been covered with an extra pool session or two and classroom.

As an independent I have total freedom and control over my classes. And as an Independent I have to teach to a higher standard since I do not have the volume or traffic a shop does. Most independents look at it this way that I know. It's also why I chose the agency with the highest standards available to me. My students want value for their money. Our standards even state that if someone wants a quickie course it's better to send them to someone else.

 

[ssidiv3r]

In addition you are not allowed to teach out of the confines of a shop with SSI. When you start realizing the time you put in and the amount of compensation you receive your views may change as well. I had my old OW Instructor say it was a shame I went to the YMCA and now SEI program instead of PADI.

True. Our training director is both SSI and PADI Intructor certified so when he has a student come to him wanting a PADI cert he'll do it and simply rent the pool for whatever time he needs

Oh I'd also get a 15% pro discount on everything and key man when he felt it was warranted. Wow!! Almost as good as the cost plus shipping and tax I get now from 2 other shops I work with on everything and any key man specials they get offered.

Gotta love those key man prices

As an independent I have total freedom and control over my classes. And as an Independent I have to teach to a higher standard since I do not have the volume or traffic a shop does. Most independents look at it this way that I know. It's also why I chose the agency with the highest standards available to me. My students want value for their money. Our standards even state that if someone wants a quickie course it's better to send them to someone else.

I'm not sure what other agency's you're familiar with so I won't ask you to compare but how do you like SEI? I took a look at the SEI website and it seems like they're pretty well organized. Do they offer specialties like Night/limited vis diving? I don't think they had it listed