True & frustrating

[Standingbear56]

coz it is somewhat restrictive; you have to watch your tongue, joke/talk with a limit & certain manner, wear "certain" gear, .... I don't want to say that I feel the fun is over as you start to dive for money.

If you are going to become a dive professional of any agency, the key is that you are now a professional and there are certain expectations you must live up to. You are not only held to a higher standard by your agency, but by the law also. The fun doesn't have to end by any means, especially when you are fun diving with your old buddies. I've had tons of fun being an instructor, and never has upholding professional standards gotten in the way. It's all a matter of how you look at it.
If you are truly anxious about the new standards, maybe you need to look at the reasons you want to become a professional. You should become a professional because you ENJOY what you are doing. If you are not enjoying it, don't do it. Either that, or become a divemaster, try it for a year or so. If you find you do enjoy it, then go keep going. If not, become an inactive Divemaster. At least then you'll know for sure.
Take care,
George

 

[Thalassamania]

Not to start a flame war about this agency vs that, but how do you know that the instr. teaching out of his basement is upholding the agency standards? Ya know, apart from him giving you his word.

How do you know that an instructor teaching out of a shop is meeting the agency standards? Some would argue that shop based instructors are less likely to actually meet standards than are independents.

 

[ssidiv3r]

The same way you know the instructor teaching out of his shop is upholding agency standards ... mostly through student feedback.

When was the last time your dive shop was "audited" by your agency to assure they were upholding standards? (my guess would be "never") ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I admit that I have no idea if our instructors have ever been checked up on, but I suppose it does have a lot to do with the individual instructor

About the same way you k now the one teaching through a shop is -- you don't. Or are you assuming that the shop management will insure standards are followed????

I know for a fact that our shop management DOES insure that ALL the staff follow agency standards

If you can't have a small amount of trust in your instructors they shouldn't be your instructors.

Why would the owner/operator of a dive store be more trustworthy to a training agency? There is NO logical reason they would be.

How do you know that an instructor teaching out of a shop is meeting the agency standards? Some would argue that shop based instructors are less likely to actually meet standards than are independents.

Some might argue those points, but others might say that an independant is more likely to slack off on points if they don't have to answer to anyone.

Let me repeat, I'm not here to start an argument about which is better, who is right or who's got the biggest (insert body part here). I simply posted my view, now lets get back to the main topic.

While I didn't mean to aim at the Agency at all, it is PADI anyway; in fact I do like their training programs & supporting materials (books, videos,...etc). I only wanted to sharre my thoughts; let's put it this way: a DM is perceiving students and/or divers as consumers, deliver the service (assuming integrity & goodwill), say goodbye. Or another that divers may call him up out of business context looking for a buddy. Which is a better DM?
Never meant to think about standards but I think if an independent instructor will relax standards; there are little guarantee, if any, that he won't if affiliated with a dive centre.

Sorry for pulling the thread off course. I would have to say that a DM that can both provide a service AND interact without any business motivations is desirable. Someone that is only looking to make a buck then people will most likely try to avoid that person.

coz it is somewhat restrictive; you have to watch your tongue, joke/talk with a limit & certain manner, wear "certain" gear, .... I don't want to say that I feel the fun is over as you start to dive for money.

I'm not so sure about that. If the "customer" or "consumer" has done business with you fairly often then they most likely have gotten to know you better than the average joe. Granted, you can't pull out the dirtiest most pervers jokes you know but it doesn't mean you can't exchange some light conversation and a few related jokes

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue the point with you ... but rather point out that you seem to have a misimpression of how the industry works. As a matter of perspective, agency standards are generally pretty low. Meeting them doesn't always guarantee a quality class. Most good instructors use the standards as a baseline, and seek ways to improve the class by exceeding them.

I admit that I have no idea if our instructors have ever been checked up on, but I suppose it does have a lot to do with the individual instructor

Yes and no ... individual instructors bring a great deal to the table. However, instructors who work for an LDS have to answer to the business owner. And since dive instruction is often (usually) sold as a loss leader, there is constant pressure to keep the costs of conducting a class to a minimum.

As an example ... when I worked for a shop, they set a limit on the number of hours of pool time I could offer ... because pool time costs money. As an independent, I can set my own limits.

From a purely business perspective, the cost of running a class has to consider:
- the purchase of student materials from the certifying agency
- the cost of the c-card (agencies don't give them to instructors for free, after all ... we pay for them)
- the instructor's pay
- some amount to cover "overhead" for the business that's selling the course
- some profit for the business owner

As an independent instructor, I do not have the last two costs ... therefore I can either pay myself more, or I can put more costs into the class (e.g. additional pool time), or I can reduce the price of the class. Two of those three options ultimately works out to the benefit of the student.

I know for a fact that our shop management DOES insure that ALL the staff follow agency standards

How do you know that? Have you read the agency's Standards and Procedures? Have you audited classes other than the ones you've taken? Or are you simply taking the word of the business owner?

Some might argue those points, but others might say that an independant is more likely to slack off on points if they don't have to answer to anyone.

Some might argue that ... but they wouldn't have any factual basis for their argument. Most independent instructors I know ... including myself ... have worked for dive shops, and decided to go independent because we decided we could offer our students a better class without having the pressures of covering LDS costs dragging us down.

Let me repeat, I'm not here to start an argument about which is better, who is right or who's got the biggest (insert body part here). I simply posted my view, now lets get back to the main topic.

Sorry ... it doesn't work that way. You're entitled to express your opinion. I'm equally entitled to tell you why I disagree with it.

Sorry for pulling the thread off course. I would have to say that a DM that can both provide a service AND interact without any business motivations is desirable. Someone that is only looking to make a buck then people will most likely try to avoid that person.

That's a rather idealistic viewpoint. Once you make the investment to become a dive professional ... and that investment is significant ... your motivations WILL be business motivations. Otherwise, why do it? Dive professionals who don't look at it as a business won't long remain dive professionals. Welcome to the real world.

Out of curiosity ... what qualifications do you have for stating that independent instructors are somehow less likely to provide quality education than dive shop professionals? You're entitled to express your opinion ... but it would help if you had some factual data or experience to back it up.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ssidiv3r]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue the point with you ... but rather point out that you seem to have a misimpression of how the industry works.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding

Yes and no ... individual instructors bring a great deal to the table. However, instructors who work for an LDS have to answer to the business owner. And since dive instruction is often (usually) sold as a loss leader, there is constant pressure to keep the costs of conducting a class to a minimum.

As an example ... when I worked for a shop, they set a limit on the number of hours of pool time I could offer ... because pool time costs money. As an independent, I can set my own limits.

From a purely business perspective, the cost of running a class has to consider:
- the purchase of student materials from the certifying agency
- the cost of the c-card (agencies don't give them to instructors for free, after all ... we pay for them)
- the instructor's pay
- some amount to cover "overhead" for the business that's selling the course
- some profit for the business owner

As an independent instructor, I do not have the last two costs ... therefore I can either pay myself more, or I can put more costs into the class (e.g. additional pool time), or I can reduce the price of the class. Two of those three options ultimately works out to the benefit of the student.

I never thought of it that way

How do you know that? Have you read the agency's Standards and Procedures? Have you audited classes other than the ones you've taken? Or are you simply taking the word of the business owner?

I have access to the agency standards and am part of the dive staff, but I am also taking the owners word as well

Some might argue that ... but they wouldn't have any factual basis for their argument. Most independent instructors I know ... including myself ... have worked for dive shops, and decided to go independent because we decided we could offer our students a better class without having the pressures of covering LDS costs dragging us down.

Again, never thought of it that way

That's a rather idealistic viewpoint. Once you make the investment to become a dive professional ... and that investment is significant ... your motivations WILL be business motivations. Otherwise, why do it? Dive professionals who don't look at it as a business won't long remain dive professionals. Welcome to the real world.

Idealistic, yes, but not impossible. The old owners of my shop were strictly business, I hated dealing with them which is why I never really dove much during '05 and '06. They got out of the dive industry and th enew owners entered with a customer-oriented viewpoint. We've been open almost a year and a half now and have managed to keep our proverbial head above water. After looking at the sales records of the old owners we found that they had been charging the staff more than they were regular customers which meant neither customers nor staff liked them. The new owners take every available chance to cut the customers and staff a break (employee discounts and repeat-customer discounts

Out of curiosity ... what qualifications do you have for stating that independent instructors are somehow less likely to provide quality education than dive shop professionals? You're entitled to express your opinion ... but it would help if you had some factual data or experience to back it up.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Honestly, none. However, I would rather get proper training (training in something that can very easily kill me) through an established site or company as opposed to somebody that teaches once every three months as a hobby

 

[Walter]

Most independent instructors I know ... including myself ... have worked for dive shops, and decided to go independent because we decided we could offer our students a better class without having the pressures of covering LDS costs dragging us down.

Again, never thought of it that way

More than just covering the LDS cost dragging us down, but pressure from owners to cut corners and get the class done faster. Having shop owners as quality control is putting the fox to guard the hen house.

I would rather get proper training (training in something that can very easily kill me) through an established site or company as opposed to somebody that teaches once every three months as a hobby

You'll usually get inferior training. Instruction from independents is usually better, often much, much better, than that found through shops.

 

[Teamcasa]

Honestly, none. However, I would rather get proper training (training in something that can very easily kill me) through an established site or company as opposed to somebody that teaches once every three months as a hobby

You'll usually get inferior training. Instruction from independents is usually better, often much, much better, than that found through shops.

Nope.

The level of training is not determined by the location of the instructors business. There are good instructors both teaching out of established shops and their basements, there is no correlation.

The advantage of getting instruction from an established shop is there may be more insurance available should something go horribly wrong.

 

[fireflock]

The advantage of getting instruction from an established shop is there may be more insurance available should something go horribly wrong.

If you're down to that particular selling point, it might be time to roll up the carpet and look for something else to do for a while.

 

[redacted]

You'll usually get inferior training. Instruction from independents is usually better, often much, much better, than that found through shops.

I don't have a lot of experience. One shop course involving a few instructors and 3 independent courses with 2 separate independent instructors. I preferred the independents for meeting my needs and not including equipment sales pitches.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Honestly, none. However, I would rather get proper training (training in something that can very easily kill me) through an established site or company as opposed to somebody that teaches once every three months as a hobby

Again, I think you're working on false assumptions. I've been an independent instructor for four of the past five years, and am teaching more classes as an independent than I did with a dive shop ... since I'm not sharing my clients with other instructors. I currently have a DM class, AOW class, Rescue class, and Deep Diver specialty class either in progress or scheduled between now and May. Most independents I know teach regularly enough to justify the costs of their agency fees and insurance each year. That would take a bit more than a class every three months.

More than just covering the LDS cost dragging us down, but pressure from owners to cut corners and get the class done faster. Having shop owners as quality control is putting the fox to guard the hen house.

You'll usually get inferior training. Instruction from independents is usually better, often much, much better, than that found through shops.

That depends strictly on the shop involved, and the terms the instructor has with them. I used to work for a great shop that focused on quality education and gave me broad latitude to teach to high standards. Unfortunately, they went out of business. The next shop I tried teaching for put a four-hour pool limit on OW classes. When I said that was insufficient he said if I wanted more, I could pay for it out of my own pocket. That's but one of the many reasons why I don't teach there anymore.

Nope.
The level of training is not determined by the location of the instructors business. There are good instructors both teaching out of established shops and their basements, there is no correlation.

The advantage of getting instruction from an established shop is there may be more insurance available should something go horribly wrong.

I can only speak for NAUI ... but they make no distinction between independents and shop instructors in terms of how much liability insurance ($2 million) you are required to carry. I doubt any other agency that supports independents does either.

I preferred the independents for meeting my needs and not including equipment sales pitches.

That's another thing I don't miss ... I didn't get into dive instruction in order to sell dive gear. I ESPECIALLY didn't get into it to sell the overpriced, high-margin stuff that typically gets pushed onto unsuspecting students at most dive shops. I've seen way too many recent OW grads sporting bulky $800 air mattresses to feel good about supporting that sort of business model.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)