Diver Death in Cayman

[Riger]

fosterboxermom,

To respond directly to a statement, use the "Quote" button on that specific post. That will make it easier to read for the rest of us.

Regards
Richard

 

[TheScubaBOB]

I thought with PADI the depth ratings were as followed:

OW - 60ft
AOW - 100ft
Deep Diver Specialty - 130ft

That's the correct PADI Limits. I'm currently AOW & will have my Deep Diver in June.

In the end each diver is responsible for their own safety. I personally never would do something "Just to say I did it". I hit 90 ft for my first deep dive doing my AOW dives (it was logged dive #10) and then I hit 106ft the next day (dive #13) which was also for my AOW. I chose to make these dives and I trusted the Instructor I was with.

Based on the description of the conditions I would never have got into the water with that group. DM is a tour guide but not a babysitter. My PADI training made that point very clear. Sure I expect they will have more experience than me but in the end I am responsible for myself.

 

[mkutyna]

Certainly not the best DM in the world but I haven't heard anything that the DM did or didn't do that directly caused this man's death. Perhaps the lack of training by the man's instructor but not the DM. Was this preventable? Probably. We still don't know what caused the death (strong downcurrent, equipment failure, physiological, training) so until we do, we can't place blame.

I'm kinda curious how the guy dropped to 346' and then ended up floating at the surface though. Did the man have a designated buddy or did he consider the DM to be his buddy? Did the DM know this? Who was the last person to see him alive and what did they see?

I get the feeling that this will be another case where we never really find out exactly what happened.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Fosterboxermom: I'm very, very sorry for your loss. This is tragic, and something we all hate to read about.

As a general statement, this appears to be an accident caused by inadequate training and non-enforcement of standards.

First, there appears to be a training and standards issue with the DM. If he was fully aware that he was dealing with newly certified divers, the depth and difficulty of the dive should have been limited. While a DM is acting as a guide and NOT an instructor on these types of dives, he still has an obligation to not take the divers on a dive that he knows is beyond their training. And if there was not someone left on board during the dive (I was not clear if that was the case for your dive) that is a second issue.

Second, and I apologize for this Fosterboxermom, the victim also had a training issue, a serious judgement issue, or probably both. Open completion of OW, every new diver is told (or is supposed to be) that they are certified to dive in the conditions in which they trained. Which for basic OW, means no deeper than 60'. There are no "scuba police", so it is up to the individual diver to exercise judgement and common sense once they leave their class and begin diving on their own.... and once you leave basic OW, you are in charge of your own safety. You cannot count on anyone else to do that for you.... because they will not, and should not. The problem with today's training is that many (most) new open water divers are not fully ready to be "on their own", and continue to rely on a DM to make safety decisions for them. They go on "trust me" dives that they have no business going on, which appears to be the case here.

Again, I'm very sorry, and do not mean to be overly harsh, but a good portion of the blame in accidents like this does lie with the victim.

Best wishes.

 

[Web Monkey]

Once you have your c card and he had one he can go to 100ft.

I am very sorry for your loss, and don't want this to sound like "blame the victim", but unless the DM actively dragged the victim down or did something exceptionally horrible, this really isn't the dive op's fault.

Each diver is responsible for his/her own safety. Among other things, this means honoring the depth restrictions for their certification level.

The proper course of action when offered a 100' dive would have been to refuse and ask for a shallower dive. I know Diver's Down is happy to do this because this exact situation arose when I was there earlier in the year. We were scheduled to go on a 100' wall dive and I mentioned that members of our group were not qualified, so we were offered two shallow reef dives instead.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

Also, the depth limit for an OWD certification is 60' not 100'.

Terry

 

[fosterboxermom]

Certainly not the best DM in the world but I haven't heard anything that the DM did or didn't do that directly caused this man's death. Perhaps the lack of training by the man's instructor but not the DM. Was this preventable? Probably. We still don't know what caused the death (strong downcurrent, equipment failure, physiological, training) so until we do, we can't place blame.

I'm kinda curious how the guy dropped to 346' and then ended up floating at the surface though. Did the man have a designated buddy or did he consider the DM to be his buddy? Did the DM know this? Who was the last person to see him alive and what did they see?

I get the feeling that this will be another case where we never really find out exactly what happened.

This was preventable. No strong current. No Buddy. The DM took eveyone except me and his fiance' as a group (5) not including himself. His fiance' and I buddied ourselves up because we choose not to go to 100ft. He got Nitrogen Narcosis about 10 mins into the dive no one saw him drop down. The DM asked me where my buddy was I pointed to his fiance' he pointed back to me that there were only 6 divers (by holding up 6 fingers) I turned around to my buddy and asked her if she was OK becauseshe was having some bouancy issues and I was keeping a close eye one her when I turned back the DM was continuing the dive. I thought someone must have told him that her finance' was OK and that he went up because the DM knew he was missing but continued on with the dive. When we got back to the boat he asked her "where is your husbanb" she said he is supposed to be with you" the DM started cussing and throwing our gear around and that's when we saw the fishing boat that had him. It's a very long story.

 

[Riger]

Fosterboxmom,

As a matter of interest;

Did you advise the diver what his (cert) limitation was and perhaps advise him against going below 60'/18m?

Did his fiancé stay with you at 60'/18m because of the certification limitation or because she just didn't want to go down that deep?

Is there a chance that she could have also gone on the deep dive if not for her comfort levels?

Please clarify the state/status of the diving child mentioned earlier in this thread.

It seems to me that DM aside, there was very little clarity on limitations amongst the divers.

In many accidents/incidents (not only diving), it is usually never one event that is the cause. Usually a combination of events is found to be contributory. By the same measure, there are often more than one opportunity to intervene and prevent accidents/incidents. Sadly, whilst the intervention often saves lives, we never truly know how many lives are saved in this manner.

Regarding this incident, if you sat down and asked yourself how many times you could have intervened, or the divers themselves, or the DM, or the government and ... and ... and.....

The government should not make laws and not apply them.
The DM should not be a Divemaster and not verify qualifications.
The diver should not exceed training recommendations.
Experienced divers should not provide advice contrary to certifications, no matter how insignificant the deviations.

The point I am making is that there is so much more to "what could have or should have" happened than we initially think. The Maldives case of poisoned air about a year ago is another classic case of miscarriage of justice (it's on this forum if you search). I hope that this is not another case like that.

Best Regards

Richard

 

[fosterboxermom]

I understand what all of you are saying about taking responsibility for yourself, however. we told this DM about 6 or 7 times that they were inexperienced and he ignored us that is why his fiance' and I buddied up ourselves. He has to have some responsibility in this as well being the EXPERIENCED DIVER. He easily could have said after we told him of the experience of the diver's on the boat that they shouldn't go that deep. These people were inexperienced that is the key. We were counting on him to keep us safe. If he doesn't then what is the point of having a DM? You might as well just rent tanks yourself and take your chances. They are there for your safety as well as a guide.

 

[vladimir]

These people were inexperienced that is the key. We were counting on him to keep us safe. If he doesn't then what is the point of having a DM? You might as well just rent tanks yourself and take your chances. They are there for your safety as well as a guide.

These are telling comments. It sounds to me like your divemaster was not particularly competent. Nevertheless, even an inexperienced diver is, at least theoretically, able to dive independently in the conditions he was certified in. He should not be relying on a divemaster to "keep him safe." If you are "taking your chances" by renting tanks and diving independently, then you should not be diving.

As has been discussed quite a bit on this board, however, many dive courses do not equip their students with the capability to dive independently and safely, instead relying on resort divemasters to keep their graduates safe. As I see it, this is at the root of your friend's death, and there is ample blame to go around.