Diver Death in Cayman

[Riger]

I understand what all of you are saying about taking responsibility for yourself, however. we told this DM about 6 or 7 times that they were inexperienced and he ignored us that is why his fiance' and I buddied up ourselves. He has to have some responsibility in this as well being the EXPERIENCED DIVER. He easily could have said after we told him of the experience of the diver's on the boat that they shouldn't go that deep. These people were inexperienced that is the key. We were counting on him to keep us safe. If he doesn't then what is the point of having a DM? You might as well just rent tanks yourself and take your chances. They are there for your safety as well as a guide.

And seriously ..... that is why you are still alive. The fiance' made a choice based on her judgement and you chose to stay with her.

Where was the kid all this time and what was/is their certification?

Best Regards

Richard

 

[fosterboxermom]

Fosterboxmom,

As a matter of interest;

Did you advise the diver what his (cert) limitation was and perhaps advise him against going below 60'/18m?

Did his fiancé stay with you at 60'/18m because of the certification limitation or because she just didn't want to go down that deep?

Is there a chance that she could have also gone on the deep dive if not for her comfort levels?

Please clarify the state/status of the diving child mentioned earlier in this thread.

It seems to me that DM aside, there was very little clarity on limitations amongst the divers.

In many accidents/incidents (not only diving), it is usually never one event that is the cause. Usually a combination of events is found to be contributory. By the same measure, there are often more than one opportunity to intervene and prevent accidents/incidents. Sadly, whilst the intervention often saves lives, we never truly know how many lives are saved in this manner.

Regarding this incident, if you sat down and asked yourself how many times you could have intervened, or the divers themselves, or the DM, or the government and ... and ... and.....

The government should not make laws and not apply them.
The DM should not be a Divemaster and not verify qualifications.
The diver should not exceed training recommendations.
Experienced divers should not provide advice contrary to certifications, no matter how insignificant the deviations.

The point I am making is that there is so much more to "what could have or should have" happened than we initially think. The Maldives case of poisoned air about a year ago is another classic case of miscarriage of justice (it's on this forum if you search). I hope that this is not another case like that.

Best Regards

Richard

Riger, We did not advise him of his cert level. That is only the advise of PADI. That is not written in stone. Any shop will take you beyond your 60ft. without question. And they knew he was a new diver. The DM knew this was his 7th dive as a matter of fact.

His fiance' went with me because I don't go below 60ft because that is where I am comfortable. And she didn't want to because this was her 7th dive as well and she said she had no desire to go to 100ft. So we made our dive plan and told the DM about 8 times before he could understand what we were doing. He even tried to give her his computer and I told him she didn't need it HE NEEDED IT HE WAS THE DM AND NEEDED IT FOR HIS GROUP.

No she would not have gone to 100ft for any circumstances

The Minor was under 18 that is all I know and he stated he had not been on a dive for a year and told the DM that.

Riger,

We have gone over and over in our heads believe me if we had not been so excited about diving we would have gotten off that boat in a heartbeat. But we just assummed nothing like this would EVER happen in a million years. And of course we have done all the what ifs. But the main point is the DM knew he was missing and didn't abort that dive. Whether or not it would have made a difference he didn't do his job. Any DM that knows a diver is missing would have stopped the dive. He never checked in on his divers either he just let the group through caverns. Being the first one in and out.

 

[fosterboxermom]

These are telling comments. It sounds to me like your divemaster was not particularly competent. Nevertheless, even an inexperienced diver is, at least theoretically, able to dive independently in the conditions he was certified in. He should not be relying on a divemaster to "keep him safe." If you are "taking your chances" by renting tanks and diving independently, than you should not be diving.

As has been discussed quite a bit on this board, however, many dive courses do not equip their students with the capability to dive independently and safely, instead relying on resort divemasters to keep their graduates safe. As I see it, this is at the root of your friend's death, and there is ample blame to go around.

Vladimir, If the DM is not there to keep you safe then tell me what his job description is?

 

[ALAN243]

First let me say that I am SOOOO sorry for the loss of your friend, this is a bad situation that could have been avoided, In my opinion the DM made some grave mistakes as well as the other divers. the one rule that EVERYONE is taught is look for your buddy for 1 minute the surface.... was this rule violated Seems so... The RECOMENDED DEPTH LIMITS are OW 60ft, AOW 100ft, maxium recreational limit 130ft, remember these are recomendations, there is no SCUBA police that are going to come arrest you or ticket you... If this diver was just finishing his training went to 100ft that is a BIG mistake on the part of the DM in my eyes... At 100 ft with no training and nitrogen narcosis hitting him, his task loading for ANY problem was going to be to high..... I worked as a DM it was my responsibility to make sure that MY divers stayed safe and alive, you bet i would laugh and tell jokes, but when it was time to dive the breifing went on. It also is EACH divers responsibility to make sure they are comfortable with the situation and to call the dive if they are not.... IMO these divers had no business doing a dive over 100ft with no visible bottom, there was no reason to take inexperienced divers to a location that was going to tax the bouyancy skills to the max.... Once again I am sorry for your loss...

 

[vladimir]

Vladimir, If the DM is not there to keep you safe then tell me what his job description is?

In my experience, the divemaster is there to give you a dive briefing that describes the layout of the site, current and tide considerations, boat procedures, whether the boat will be live or not, etc. Divemasters frequently do not enter the water.

I have also experienced the follow-the-leader dives that it seems you signed up for and expected. In that context, I don't think your expectations for babysitting were totally unwarranted, because that is the norm. And I think that lack of clarity is a big part of the problem with the dive tourism industry. So I resist blaming this particular divemaster and dive operator alone--although they probably bear some of the blame--because they are just part of a system that has evolved in pursuit of profits.

 

[JonKranhouse]

A news article 2 1/2 years ago predicted an increase in accidents in the Caymans:

"New instructors are not being properly trained, they come out here and are put straight to work because there are no experienced staff to teach them."

In the past dive centres took new staff through a comprehensive familiarisation programme during which they learned the dive sites and conducted guided dives under supervision.

One source stated, "Now they seem to arrive one day and be running the dive boat the next. This violates the basic principles of customer service and safety, it's an accident waiting to happen."
---
Then, one year ago the head of the Cayman watersports association, Stephen Broadbelt, lobbied to lower their government's standards to allow an abandoned boat while all divers and the DM are underwater. Broadbelt warned that if the abandoned-boat concept was not officially adopted, then operators would be required to hire less-qualified staff (from the Cay Compass):

"But those [operators] that are able to overcome this additional burden [cost of a top-side bubble-water] will need to cut corners by hiring less qualified or experienced staff, sacrifice in-water supervision and reduce the overall customer experience and safety."

 

[vladimir]

Is there any evidence that the rate of diver deaths per dive has increased in the Caymans?

 

[Riger]

This will be my last post on this matter.

The fact that you warned the DM more than 6 times of the limitations in experience and certifications of the other divers in the group should have outweighed the excitement of the dive ... there should have been warning bells and flags going off somewhere.

This is a sad incident that was seemingly preventable (assuming there was no Cariac Arrest or other medical condition).

I agree with other commentary in this thread that there is an "aparent" general and significant lack of teaching of diver independance in many training institutions. This leads to certain expectations from novice divers of Divemasters/guides which, are often not delivered. Most times this has no deteremental effect, sometimes however this can result in preventable accidents.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[gene02]

fosterboxermom I am so sorry for your loss, I know it is hard to see this through others eyes that was not there. I have no experience in these matters other than I know what I was taught about thumbing a dive and my skills. Your friend was thinking with his ego his fiancé and yourself made a sound decision based on skills to only go 60' he on the other hand wanted to push his limits.

These people were inexperienced that is the key. We were counting on him to keep us safe.

as stated above it is the divers job to evaluate every dive based on there skills. I really am not trying to be harsh just a outsider looking in.

Any DM that knows a diver is missing would have stopped the dive. He never checked in on his divers either he just let the group through caverns. Being the first one in and out.

The one thing I read from the news articles is a fishing boat had found your friend before he was reported missing now in my opinion that is a poor operation to have someone else report your lost diver. Again I wasn't there but that would be one to explain away.

 

[World Wide Diver]

I understand what all of you are saying about taking responsibility for yourself, however. we told this DM about 6 or 7 times that they were inexperienced and he ignored us that is why his fiance' and I buddied up ourselves. He has to have some responsibility in this as well being the EXPERIENCED DIVER. He easily could have said after we told him of the experience of the diver's on the boat that they shouldn't go that deep. These people were inexperienced that is the key. We were counting on him to keep us safe. If he doesn't then what is the point of having a DM? You might as well just rent tanks yourself and take your chances. They are there for your safety as well as a guide.

We are sorry for the loss of your friend.

If you - or anyone - has any doubts whatsoever about the competence of the staff, lack of planning/site orientation, sea conditions, depth regarding you/your buddies experience level, then DON'T MAKE THE DIVE!!! Got to a site that you are comfortable with - or simply cancel the dive.

It is our experience that many newly qualified divers often experience buoyancy control difficulties on dive sites where there is no visible bottom.

The final decision to dive rests with the diver - not the DM. However, as experienced DM's, our view is that good DM would have already assessed your group's skills and competence levels way before BEFORE you even set foot on the boat and selected an appropriate site for you all to dive safely.

Once in open water, you should dive responsibly in buddy pairs (minimum). Buddy pairing should be made clear to every diver AND slated on a board (pre-dive). And, there must always be a 'spotter' responsible person left on the dive boat (with full equipment ready if needs be).

Further, a DM has many roles and he/she should clarify his/her roles and responsibilities to divers. If he/she does not do this, then you should question their competence.

In our opinions, PADI DM training needs to be radically overhauled. All DM's ought to undergo a full internship with a proficient operator. There is no substitute for experience.

Without prejudice, it seems like there are many factors which led to this tragedy - including poor judgement, lack of experience, lack of planning and disregard of some basic dive safety procedures.

However, we think that it would be inappropriate to comment further/apportion blame at the moment as this case is now under official investigation.

[Mod - please note!]