Quick question on Rescue

[InTheDrink]

Well day #1 of course. 3 hours in pool. So far so good.

Very enjoyable (and glad that I used my jacket).

In short, I guess I've picked up more on SB and my own drilling and diving than I realised as they seemed pretty surprised by my ability and technique and try as they might (and boy did they try) failed to get my in the panicked divers grip no matter how much they spun, went from passive to sudden active, added other tasks (disconnected LPIH etc.) Anyhow it was all a lot of fun and I can't pretend I wasn't flattered when they said I was 'textbook' for a lot of the tasks. Our victims (1 instructor, 2 victims) were ****ing HUGE. I was slightly disconcerted at first when I saw the size of these beasts but in this instance the water is very much your friend. There was only one other diver doing the course and he struggled a little but fairly sure he'll assimilate the information over the coming couple of weeks.

We have a two week break til next session - I'm going to use this period to get a couple of dives in with my new rig and then complete the course using that. I didn't feel task loaded at all today so happy to take on a new rig. Plus the jacket felt horrible in comparison to my wing (no doubt this is 90% psychological, but still...)

RJP - I understand where you're coming from but I would equally say that one's rescue diving skills shouldn't be tied to a particular rig or config. Understanding rescue techniques and protocols should be gear independent and the two should not need to be tightly coupled. Having said that, I can completely see why one would want to couple the two to perfect the implementation of the skills with a particular rig or config but that seems like a different argument and given that I drill pretty much everything I've learned frequently, applying the rescue skills I'm learning *shouldn't* be a one-off exercise (although without a regular buddy I can see myself struggling with some of the drills).

Anyhow, I'm going to take the BP/W to the next class. This one will be in cold dark silty water so will hopefully present some interesting challenges!!!

Cheers,
John

 

[rstofer]

Umm. OK. You never explained why one should over-weight by that amount. You seemed to imply that this would help one descend faster. I hope this is not the reason.

Some divers set their initial buoyancy such that they really can't sink by just dumping their BC. In fact, this may only get them to eyeball level before their wetsuit compresses at depth. So, it takes a little invert and swim-down technique (or bounce) to get under.

Add in a floaty empty tank at the end of the dive (offset by a somewhat compressed wetsuit) and it might be pretty difficult to get under a diver.

That could account for why it might be nice to add a little weight for the class. As part of the training, a student may be required to use techniques they don't plan to use in the ocean. With this perfectly valid initial buoyancy setup, I suspect that the rear approach scheme may be the preferred method.

That certainly doesn't mean that a diver should carry enough weight to sink like a rock with an empty tank just because they did it in class. There's no point in diving that way on the off-chance they might have to do a rescue. What's important is to realize that some techniques are going to be right out the window. At least for cold water, wetsuit divers.

The rear approach method isn't going to work very well with the DUI W&T harness. In fact, dumping some types of BCD integrated weights will also be a problem using the rear approach method. If the victim's BC doesn't inflate (OOA or equipment failure), this thing is going to turn into a wrestling match.

Back to rule #1: don't let the victim's problem become your problem! Unless they are family...

Richard

 

[rstofer]

RJP - I understand where you're coming from but I would equally say that one's rescue diving skills shouldn't be tied to a particular rig or config. Understanding rescue techniques and protocols should be gear independent and the two should not need to be tightly coupled. Having said that, I can completely see why one would want to couple the two to perfect the implementation of the skills with a particular rig or config but that seems like a different argument and given that I drill pretty much everything I've learned frequently, applying the rescue skills I'm learning *shouldn't* be a one-off exercise (although without a regular buddy I can see myself struggling with some of the drills).

Congratulations on your pool session. Rescue is a terrific course.

I think over time you will find that Rescue is definitely situational. It is absolutely equipment related in that a victim with an Al 80 is going to be easier to deal with than a victim with double 120's and a back-mounted pony bottle. Then there is the huge difference between wetsuit and drysuit victims. I know for a fact that my skills are not going to help me with a drysuit diver - I don't know how to operate a drysuit. If the victim starts to look like the Pillsbury Doughboy, I hope I can find the neck seals.

There is a gigantic difference between rescuing a T-shirt, warm water diver and a wetsuit diver at great depth (say 100' or so). They're going to tell you to vent the victim's BC at depth and control the ascent with yours. Well, shoot, that just doesn't work!

If it takes a 30# wing, nearly fully inflated, to remain neutral at great depth, there is no way in the world that your 30# wing is going to lift both you and the victim. So, you WILL have to manipulate both BCs. BTW, training for rescue in 30' of water is pretty useless. The problems increase wildly at greater depths.

And then the victim might have one of those Air II devices. Maybe you are familiar with how to vent it, maybe not. Worse, they might have one of those 'elevator' levers. The victim might not be your buddy and you may not have been briefed on their equipment.

So, in my view, Rescue is always situational.

Richard

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Some divers set their initial buoyancy such that they really can't sink by just dumping their BC. In fact, this may only get them to eyeball level before their wetsuit compresses at depth. So, it takes a little invert and swim-down technique (or bounce) to get under.

Add in a floaty empty tank at the end of the dive (offset by a somewhat compressed wetsuit) and it might be pretty difficult to get under a diver.

That could account for why it might be nice to add a little weight for the class.

@rstofer: I realize that some divers will want to weight themselves in the way that you describe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think it's important, however, if one chooses to weight himself in that way, that the diver doesn't add one or two extra pounds in order to make a rescue class scenario "easier." Better to find out what your capabilities are in your normal gear configuration during class than to be faced with a real-life situation where you didn't have time to over-weight yourself slightly (like you did in rescue class). I'm fairly certain that you'll agree with me on this point.

The rear approach method isn't going to work very well with the DUI W&T harness. In fact, dumping some types of BCD integrated weights will also be a problem using the rear approach method. If the victim's BC doesn't inflate (OOA or equipment failure), this thing is going to turn into a wrestling match.

Yeah, the DUI W&T does take a fair pull in front of the diver to release weight, eh?
To any novice divers reading this thread: This brings up an excellent point. Be familiar with your buddy's dive gear. Know how to operate all of his gear. Consider which weight you might want to ditch first if a situation requires it. This kind of mental preparation should be done before you and your buddy get wet. On a small dive boat, on the way out to the dive site and as we are getting geared up, I'll usually glance around to see what gear the other divers are using. There's lots of variety in the types of dive gear in current use. Ask questions when something looks different. Divers are usually very happy to talk about their gear...even if you don't know them.

 

[rstofer]

@rstofer: I realize that some divers will want to weight themselves in the way that you describe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think it's important, however, if one chooses to weight himself in that way, that the diver doesn't add one or two extra pounds in order to make a rescue class scenario "easier." Better to find out what your capabilities are in your normal gear configuration during class than to be faced with a real-life situation where you didn't have time to over-weight yourself slightly (like you did in rescue class). I'm fairly certain that you'll agree with me on this point.

I'm not sure I do... I might be coerced to do a frontal approach for a class but I might decide to NEVER make that approach in practice. That is, I KNOW I can't get under a victim at the surface in real life so there is no point in trying. For the class, what can I do? I have to add some weight so I can pass the exercise. And that might be all it is; an exercise.

In my view, there isn't a lot of commonality between rescues in class and what I expect them to be like in real life. Plans and ideas go right out the window when there is a real victim thrashing around, seriously trying to kill you. Again, in my view, knowing several ways to approach the victim is nice in class but I might just settle for one in the ocean. They either respond in a calm, reasonable manner or I'm going for the rear approach. I am not going to become the second victim!

And I have no idea how I'm going to drop the victim's weight with a rear approach. Maybe I can get their BC inflated. When they calm down I might move around and try to drop the weights. Something will work out...

It was easier when everyone wore a weight belt with 6# of lead and used an Al 80.

Richard

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I'm not sure I do... I might be coerced to do a frontal approach for a class but I might decide to NEVER make that approach in practice. That is, I KNOW I can't get under a victim at the surface in real life so there is no point in trying. For the class, what can I do? I have to add some weight so I can pass the exercise. And that might be all it is; an exercise.

In my local waters, it makes sense to weight oneself to be neutral at the surface with an uninflated BCD and a near empty tank.
For the rescue class that I took, the panicked-diver-at-the-surface scenario occurred in front of us. There were several acceptable actions to deal with the incident:

1. Stay in front, keep distance, and try to talk the diver into helping himself (best to try this first),
2. Reach with or give something buoyant for the diver to grab onto (but be prepared to distance yourself if the diver tries to climb on top of you),
3. Try to work yourself behind the diver at the surface and approach from the rear, or
4. Submerge to help position yourself better for assisting from behind (this may entail swimming underneath or around the panicked diver).

FWIW, we all had plenty of air in our tanks when responding to this scenario, so that added ballast made sinking easy. Having a near empty tank would certainly discourage me from attempting any rescue which involved going underwater.

In my view, there isn't a lot of commonality between rescues in class and what I expect them to be like in real life. Plans and ideas go right out the window when there is a real victim thrashing around, seriously trying to kill you. Again, in my view, knowing several ways to approach the victim is nice in class but I might just settle for one in the ocean. They either respond in a calm, reasonable manner or I'm going for the rear approach. I am not going to become the second victim!

Having multiple approaches to a real-life problem gives you more options. Simply select the best one. The "I'm not going to become a second victim" thought is a good one. I do think, however, that this mantra (especially here on SB) is oft-recited but oversimplifies rescue decision-making. In any emergency situation, a rescuer will be exposed to some amount of risk -- the trick is figuring out what amount is manageable and "worth it." The risk to the problem diver and the risk to the rescuer should be considered.
On a side note, I have to say that if the scenarios in your rescue class did not seem "realistic" to you, then perhaps your instructor could have done a better job challenging the students in your class.

 

[InTheDrink]

Congratulations on your pool session. Rescue is a terrific course.

I think over time you will find that Rescue is definitely situational. It is absolutely equipment related in that a victim with an Al 80 is going to be easier to deal with than a victim with double 120's and a back-mounted pony bottle. Then there is the huge difference between wetsuit and drysuit victims. I know for a fact that my skills are not going to help me with a drysuit diver - I don't know how to operate a drysuit. If the victim starts to look like the Pillsbury Doughboy, I hope I can find the neck seals.

There is a gigantic difference between rescuing a T-shirt, warm water diver and a wetsuit diver at great depth (say 100' or so). They're going to tell you to vent the victim's BC at depth and control the ascent with yours. Well, shoot, that just doesn't work!

If it takes a 30# wing, nearly fully inflated, to remain neutral at great depth, there is no way in the world that your 30# wing is going to lift both you and the victim. So, you WILL have to manipulate both BCs. BTW, training for rescue in 30' of water is pretty useless. The problems increase wildly at greater depths.

And then the victim might have one of those Air II devices. Maybe you are familiar with how to vent it, maybe not. Worse, they might have one of those 'elevator' levers. The victim might not be your buddy and you may not have been briefed on their equipment.

So, in my view, Rescue is always situational.

Richard

Hey Richard,

You make excellent points and both that I observed over the course of the class.

1. I had three different victims with different kit on. Some of the victim's kit was pretty standard and how you'd expect and straightforward to deal with. Others (1 x harness, 1 x harness that looked like a weight belt) were less so.

My big take away from this was the STA - spend a little time working out your victim's kit before doing anything. The additional 20 seconds paid dividends quickly even in the training scenario.

I would disagree with you however that your skills aren't transferable to different equipment, e.g. a dry suit diver. If you spend 5 minutes looking at where the commonest valves are then you could easily apply the same techniques to this slightly different equipment. OC scuba gear is generally not so complex that you couldn't work out where you key objectives are and how they work in a few seconds. In terms of getting someone out of their rig on the surface - more complicated depending on the rig so I would be very happy with using a cutting device if I found myself struggling to understand the releases.

2. For the heaviest victims I had to use both BCs to get us up. I vented his, and put air in mine and finned gently and noticed I was making no progress. So yeah, I can see that manipulating both BCs could easily be a necessity. It was for me even at 3m.

Something else that I noticed - and this could just be because it's new to me - but that my ability to perform reduced over time as I got tired. In fairness I went to bed late and then had maintenance works until 3.20 on the train tracks outside my window (a bizarre spin off from the volcano disruption) so I had less than 4 hours sleep before the course. But I did notice my concentration slipping towards then end. I guess this might be a realistic reconstruction of how one's performance might get impaired with a lot of stress, concentration or general tiredness.

Overall I would agree with your statement that rescue is very situational - which is why internalising it is so important so that one is not dogmatic about a fixed sequence of actions but where one can apply the basic principles on the fly to dynamic situations.

Cheers,
J

 

[InTheDrink]

For the rescue class that I took, the panicked-diver-at-the-surface scenario occurred in front of us. ... FWIW, we all had plenty of air in our tanks when responding to this scenario, so that added ballast made sinking easy. Having a near empty tank would certainly discourage me from attempting any rescue which involved going underwater.

The first panicked diver drill we had we were topside and just jumped in (fins, mask, wetsuit). Duck diving underneath the diver was straight forward as was releasing his weights and getting on his tank. I think I'd be happy to do this in real life too. Think being the operative word, won't know unless I ever find myself in that situation for real.

It pissed my victim off no-end thought that he just couldn't get hold of me. Still making me smile now

J

 

[InTheDrink]

I'm not sure I do... I might be coerced to do a frontal approach for a class but I might decide to NEVER make that approach in practice. That is, I KNOW I can't get under a victim at the surface in real life so there is no point in trying. For the class, what can I do? I have to add some weight so I can pass the exercise. And that might be all it is; an exercise.

In my view, there isn't a lot of commonality between rescues in class and what I expect them to be like in real life. Plans and ideas go right out the window when there is a real victim thrashing around, seriously trying to kill you. Again, in my view, knowing several ways to approach the victim is nice in class but I might just settle for one in the ocean. They either respond in a calm, reasonable manner or I'm going for the rear approach. I am not going to become the second victim!

And I have no idea how I'm going to drop the victim's weight with a rear approach. Maybe I can get their BC inflated. When they calm down I might move around and try to drop the weights. Something will work out...

It was easier when everyone wore a weight belt with 6# of lead and used an Al 80.

Richard

Regarding the rear approach - I asked the instructor whether making frontal contact with a panicked diver EVER made sense... he said in general no. However, underwater, it can be a good plan.

He said something like this:
Underwater your panicked divers dimensions of movement are not as restricted as on the surface. On the surface one place he'll never go is down. Under the water and panicked this isn't necessarily the case and should the panicked diver get to close to you and you are not positioned to avoid the embrace, rather than waiting for such, grabbing their opposite wrist and spinning them around into the knee cradle position is a good option.

It's more of a defensive move I guess. Not something I'd ever try at the surface and indeed, not underwater either unless I had no choice.

Obviously I am just in training, don't know ****, and have never experienced this stuff in real life so take my words with the appropriate lack of gavitas they warrant.

Cheers,
John

 

[rstofer]

On a side note, I have to say that if the scenarios in your rescue class did not seem "realistic" to you, then perhaps your instructor could have done a better job challenging the students in your class.

I took rescue a long time ago in a very far away place (Singapore, '88). The class was excellent (NAUI) and covered a lot of material. One requirement was a written paper describing all the likely marine injuries and their treatment. This was a LONG research project. Kind of open-ended... And definitely regional...

But here's the problem: the water was warm, weight belts were used with very little weight, buoyancy didn't change much from bottom to top and all we had to deal with was the change caused by air consumption in an Al 80. Sure, we learned all the dance steps but it simply doesn't translate well to cold water with a wetsuit that can lose 25# of buoyancy at great depth.

The surface techniques are all the same, tow and blow is still tow and blow and the requirement for First Aid and CPR were the same (although the standard for CPR has changed over the years).

I think the current approach to rescue around here (Monterey, Lake Tahoe) is deficient in the handling of wetsuit compression. None of the class rescues are done from much depth so the wild swing in buoyancy just isn't a factor. Heck, it could be worse: the victim could have twin 120s and a blown wing!

My only point in all of this is that rescue is not only situational, it requires a lot of thought. Try to figure out what the worst-case scenario might be and try to prepare for it. Worst-case is NOT 10' of water!

Richard