PADI tables finally going away?

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"I'm actually not aware of any instructor who simply dropped time from their course when choosing to no longer teach tables."


You are not? seriously? You mean that in all of your time as a member of this board you have never read any post lamenting the fact that dive classes have gotten increasingly shorter? You may not personally know any instructors that are cutting class times down, but you would have to be aware of the practice. My point all along has been that cutting table out, would OBVIOUSLY be a contibuting factor to a shorter classroom session. Many instructors will probably do exactly that........Just to clarify, I am not saying ALL of them will, or that YOU will......just that MANY of the will.

I don't agree that the conclusion is obvious. It may not even be likely. Teaching a dive computer could easily take as long as teaching a dive table.

Are there any metrics to show that, when tables were removed from classes, those classes were shortened by [the amount of time historically spent teaching tables - the amount of time spent teaching whatever replaced tables]? Or were other things simply prioritized?

I don't doubt that classes have gotten shorter, but I do doubt that there is a 1:1 relationship between the difference in class times and the elimination of tables. I assume that across the board classes have been shortened.
 
I see your point,

My frame of reference is that I was taught both, so I was thinking in terms of one being taken away from a previously taught two.

-Mitch
 
I never said it was the only reason, I stated that it was probably one of the biggest reasons....in my opinion.

Fair enough, I apologize for being hyperbolic in my response. You're correct to call me on it.

What if a student in class requires more time to grasp something? It takes however long it takes.

Indeed. But there is a difference between a student not grasping something within the confines of a scheduled class and simply shifting class times around and raising prices because there's one more bit of trivia we'd like to include.

Seriously? Do you really imagine that there is a side to the arguement that I don't grasp? Really? Nice jab there.:wink:

It was a serious offer where you're saying you don't understand why people argue for removing tables from the course. That it was slightly amusing at the same time was just a bonus :D

I do realize that I'm probably much different than many other people in that regard.

Welcome to the business side of the dive industry.

I don't disagree with this either.
But I look at it this way....If I'm devoting my time/money/resources towards training, then I want it all taught. Even if it's of marginal value.

So, you expected your open water course to be how long? 2 years? 30?

There's a BIG difference between disagreeing with instructors, or responding to some of the things they say to those that disagree them....and to the way you have chosen to characterize it.

Fair enough. However, I'm not seeing you respond to the points instructors are making. Indeed, you seem to be saying you agree with more than a few of the points instructors are making.

Many instructors here seem to be simply "pitching" the party line when defending the cutting out the dive tables move.

Given the people I've seen involved in this thread, I find any accusations of "party line" for more than a few of them flat out hilarious.
 
Okay. I'll try once more.
<snip> But diving has become a business and it seems it is gradually moving away from the "safe" to the "fast and easy" approach.

Foregoing the teaching of tables is part of this trend, instead of instilling the student with the habit of planning dives, checking gear, using redundancy, etc there is a shift to the disregard with the security, total reliance in the gear and blindness to the risks, all the while pushing new and shinny gear to the customer. The curriculum is but one more facet of the same thing, the will to please the customer and put as many people and as fast in the water and sell as much as possible.
Diving is an industry (not a business). Innovation in the industry has tended, over the decades, to bring out the Chicken-Littles (but instead of "The sky is falling!" we hear "You're gonna die!")

So as not to confuse you, let me use an example that is not dive computers: today we typically dive with gear sets that include alternate second stages, but this wasn't always so, and when this technology was introduced, many made the same kinds of "shiny gear" accusation you have expressed above--that if people were (what the critics felt to be) properly trained, there would be no need for (what the critics termed) unscrupulous, money-grubbing dive instructors/shops/manufacturers to push this (to the critics' minds) unnecessary additional gear onto divers and students. Since you yourself have been recently certified, it's quite likely that during your OW training you were not taught the skill we call "buddy breathing." While this was a necessary skill to have when divers didn't routinely carry alternate air sources, it is no longer universally taught because advances in equipment (i.e., the advent of the alternate air source) have made it superfluous. There are still some instructors and divers out there who decry the omission of buddy breathing from the curriculum. Is there a risk that a diver's alternate will fail when his/her buddy needs it? Yes there is--it could happen. Does not teaching buddy breathing mean we are "blind" to this risk? No, it does not--it means that the risk is so small as to be inconsequential. Is the sky falling? No, it isn't.

Pleasing customer should only go so far, putting him in danger due to his own ignorance is not acceptable. Diving is dangerous. That is why certifications were needed in first place, that should never be let out of sight.
You are confused (again) here. Certifications are not needed. There are no scuba police. For insurance reasons, most dive operators will require that anyone buying dive services be certified or under the care of a dive professional. It would be entirely counter-productive for us as industry professionals to put ourselves in the position of encouraging divers to engage in behavior that is unequivocally dangerous. Not only would it be morally reprehensible (and we are human, after all), but we would also lose our businesses as we would be unable to buy an insurance policy. Claiming that dive industry professionals wantonly put their students and customers at unreasonable risk is not only ridiculous, but also highly insulting.

Because computers are not standard, tables are for the agency. Tables across agencies also look pretty alike(at least as far as I know), computers vary wildly.
Computers do not vary "wildly." All of them provide the same basic information regarding depth, dive time, remaining bottom time. Some have a few more bells and whistles, and different manufacturers use different mathematical decompression models, but all are generally the same in terms of function. The main difference between one computer and the next from the perspective of the user is what sequence of buttons you push to access the information. Printed dive tables also vary in how you access the information, and like dive computers, because they are based on different mathematical models, the information you get from one table may be significantly different from the information you get from another. In other words, if you plan a specific dive with two set of tables, you are very likely to get two very different sets of results for bottom times, pressure groups, etc. I get the impression you are not aware of this basic fact.

So, all your students computer are the same? Or do you go over each student teaching them individually? How this is best for the students?

You sell them the computer? So you are forcing them unto one brand and model?

Or do they borrow yours? What do they do when they buy theirs one that potentially is very different than yours?
As I said, all computers are similar in function, so there isn't any risk of two computers being "potentially very different." If a student has his/her own computer, s/he learns on that one. If not, I have rentals. No, I don't sell computers, but I will take students shopping to buy one, if they wish. During the shopping trip we can look at various brands and models to find the one that best meets the needs of the diver. When they buy one, if it is different from the rental they learned on, the transition is very easy. It's just a matter of learning which buttons to push. I just had a bunch of certified divers from a US naval vessel here diving, and they rented my computers along with BCDs and regs. They had absolutely no problem with the computers, even though they had never used that model before; in fact, it was so easy for them that they switched the units from metric to imperial and simply let me know that they'd done it so I could switch them back before I put them back into the rental locker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill about the minor differences in using one dive computer compared to the next.

And yet, I don't see how computers figure in the planning stage of the dive. Mine does not. If I want to plan the next 2 dives, I have to use a table.
No you don't have to use a table. Here are a couple of options you are apparently unaware of:
1) You could use the PADI ERDP-ML and never have to know how to trace a line on a table or flip a table to side 2 to see residual N2 loads. But then the ERDP-ML is nothing but a dive planning calculator, and you seem to want to reject electronic devices.
2) You could use any one of a number of dive planning software products out there and cut your own dive-specific tables. But then what is a dive computer if it isn't just a portable way of accessing a piece of software?

Anyway, even using tables doesn't free you up from doing dive planning between dives. Your actual bottom time/depth/surface interval for a dive you have executed may be different from what you planned before the dive, so you'd need to recalculate anyway. But I'm sure you knew that, right?
 
I don't have a problem with PADI, I only cited them as an example since it was their O.W. book I looked at.
How would I "join" another agency? Do they have recruiters? :wink:

I'd take another PADI class in a heartbeat, there are plenty of good instructors out there. I know enough instructors, DM's and candidates to know that it takes a lot of work to become either one.

I'm sorry if I came across as being critical of PADI specifically. They were the only example I could point out in the context of this thread, since I don't know anything about what the other agencies are doing.

-Mitch


Recruiters? No you could just choose to change, take your next class thru another agency. If you are a instructor you could do a crossover class.
 
Okay. I'll try once more.
Diving is an industry (not a business). Innovation in the industry has tended, over the decades, to bring out the Chicken-Littles (but instead of "The sky is falling!" we hear "You're gonna die!")
So as not to confuse you, let me use an example that is not dive computers: today we typically dive with gear sets that include alternate second stages, but this wasn't always so, and when this technology was introduced, many made the same kinds of "shiny gear" accusation you have expressed above--that if people were (what the critics felt to be) properly trained, there would be no need for (what the critics termed) unscrupulous, money-grubbing dive instructors/shops/manufacturers to push this (to the critics' minds) unnecessary additional gear onto divers and students. Since you yourself have been recently certified, it's quite likely that during your OW training you were not taught the skill we call "buddy breathing." While this was a necessary skill to have when divers didn't routinely carry alternate air sources, it is no longer universally taught because advances in equipment (i.e., the advent of the alternate air source) have made it superfluous. There are still some instructors and divers out there who decry the omission of buddy breathing from the curriculum. Is there a risk that a diver's alternate will fail when his/her buddy needs it? Yes there is--it could happen. Does not teaching buddy breathing mean we are "blind" to this risk? No, it does not--it means that the risk is so small as to be inconsequential. Is the sky falling? No, it isn't.
With the advent of the SPG the risk of being OOA should have become so small as to be inconsequental, no? Does that mean that auxiliary use really became inconsequential?
I still teach buddy-breathing and progress from buddy breathing to auxiliary use, even though the possility of needing either is rather small. The progression is natural and historical and there is a great deal of understanding of the development of diving and diving equipment that can be shared in the process.
You are confused (again) here. Certifications are not needed. There are no scuba police. For insurance reasons, most dive operators will require that anyone buying dive services be certified or under the care of a dive professional.
Requiring the purchase of insurance, IMHO, is (as is coming out) a way for the agencies to get you to pay their insurance and help them line their pockets while they pretend to be helping you. I first brought this up back in the bad old days when all the insurance for the entire industry went through one agent who was alleged to make over a half million a year on it himself for no more effort than a letter to Lloyds and who was also alleged to pass out $50K in bills to the heads for some of the agencies. Perhaps it is a more sophisiticated scam to day, but the basis is the same. Insurance should not be a required item, it should be bought by the individual shop or instructor to cover their needs and their needs only.
It would be entirely counter-productive for us as industry professionals to put ourselves in the position of encouraging divers to engage in behavior that is unequivocally dangerous. Not only would it be morally reprehensible (and we are human, after all), but we would also lose our businesses as we would be unable to buy an insurance policy. Claiming that dive industry professionals wantonly put their students and customers at unreasonable risk is not only ridiculous, but also highly insulting.
I don't think it is a liability question, but rather a moral one, and if that is insulting ... so be it. The real issue (at least to me) has to do with the student being properly equipped to provide credible informed consent, which I submit is rarely the case today.
Computers do not vary "wildly." All of them provide the same basic information regarding depth, dive time, remaining bottom time. Some have a few more bells and whistles, and different manufacturers use different mathematical decompression models, but all are generally the same in terms of function. The main difference between one computer and the next from the perspective of the user is what sequence of buttons you push to access the information. Printed dive tables also vary in how you access the information, and like dive computers, because they are based on different mathematical models, the information you get from one table may be significantly different from the information you get from another. In other words, if you plan a specific dive with two set of tables, you are very likely to get two very different sets of results for bottom times, pressure groups, etc. I get the impression you are not aware of this basic fact.
Computers do, in fact, vary widely; and, as you point out, so do tables. This has at it's base a question of the model that is used. This is something that few, if any students (or for that matter instructors, e.g., are you comfortable explaining the difference between say, the Spensor Tables, the Huggie Tables and the Royal Navy or US Navy tables) grasp at all. Similarly, what about the differences between the various models that different computers use. Diving without grasping those concepts, even at just a basic level, is what I mean by the lack of informed consent.
As I said, all computers are similar in function, so there isn't any risk of two computers being "potentially very different." If a student has his/her own computer, s/he learns on that one. If not, I have rentals. No, I don't sell computers, but I will take students shopping to buy one, if they wish. During the shopping trip we can look at various brands and models to find the one that best meets the needs of the diver. When they buy one, if it is different from the rental they learned on, the transition is very easy. It's just a matter of learning which buttons to push. I just had a bunch of certified divers from a US naval vessel here diving, and they rented my computers along with BCDs and regs. They had absolutely no problem with the computers, even though they had never used that model before; in fact, it was so easy for them that they switched the units from metric to imperial and simply let me know that they'd done it so I could switch them back before I put them back into the rental locker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill about the minor differences in using one dive computer compared to the next.
I'm not talking about the ability to read and understand the numbers and thus avoid putting the device into decompression status; I'm taking about being able to honestly make an informed choice so that a diver can make a reasoned decision concerning the best device for his or her use. This just doesn't happen, with either computers or tables.
No you don't have to use a table. Here are a couple of options you are apparently unaware of:
1) You could use the PADI ERDP-ML and never have to know how to trace a line on a table or flip a table to side 2 to see residual N2 loads. But then the ERDP-ML is nothing but a dive planning calculator, and you seem to want to reject electronic devices.
2) You could use any one of a number of dive planning software products out there and cut your own dive-specific tables. But then what is a dive computer if it isn't just a portable way of accessing a piece of software?
Anyway, even using tables doesn't free you up from doing dive planning between dives. Your actual bottom time/depth/surface interval for a dive you have executed may be different from what you planned before the dive, so you'd need to recalculate anyway. But I'm sure you knew that, right?
I've said it many times, tables are photos and computers are cartoons of the models. There is nothing wrong with either; in fact computers are likely better. The problem is that in most cases the information provided is lacking and, from what I have seen, computers have made the information problem worse.

 
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Thal, I'll respond to only one part of your post.
Requiring the purchase of insurance, IMHO, is (as is coming out) a way for the agencies to get you to pay their insurance and help them line their pockets while they pretend to be helping you. I first brought this up back in the bad old days when all the insurance for the entire industry went through one agent who was alleged to make over a half million a year on it himself for no more effort than a letter to Lloyds and who was also alleged to pass out $50K in bills to the heads for some of the agencies. Perhaps it is a more sophisiticated scam to day, but the basis is the same. Insurance should not be a required item, it should be bought by the individual shop or instructor to cover their needs and their needs only.
Your rant above is based on a narrow data set, and I can confidently say that you are overgeneralizing, at the very least.

I am not required by any agency to have insurance. I am required by the Ministry of Tourism to have insurance in order to keep my Tourism Authority license current. My company's insurance policy is not guaranteed by any of the underwriters affiliated with the agencies.
 
That narrow data set is, at least, all of the U.S.A. Perhaps that is "Ugly American" overgeneralization, thak you for reminding us that all is not as it is here. But, at least my goverment does not force me to buy iinstructional liability insurance.

I take it then that you agree with the rest of my "rant?"
 
That narrow data set is, at least, all of the U.S.A. Perhaps that is "Ugly American" overgeneralization, thak you for reminding us that all is not as it is here. But, at least my goverment does not force me to buy iinstructional liability insurance.

I take it then that you agree with the rest of my "rant?"
I don't have to buy instructional liability insurance either. The only insurance I am required to have is that which satisfies the Ministry of Tourism's requirement that anyone who works with tourists (this includes both land and water-based tours) must have accident coverage to keep the license current.

As for the rest of your post, I do agree with parts of it, as they stand alone, but not necessarily as a response to my own post. It's as if my words triggered a chain of thought in you that is somewhat tangential to the message I was trying to convey. There are layers to every discussion, and while I was addressing one layer, you were responding to another. I also disagree with other parts, most particularly where, by responding directly to me, you seem to be implying that I'm immoral and further, where your "if that is insulting, so be it," is a tidy bit of arrogance.
 
I don't have to buy instructional liability insurance either. The only insurance I am required to have is that which satisfies the Ministry of Tourism's requirement that anyone who works with tourists (this includes both land and water-based tours) must have accident coverage to keep the license current.
If I may inquire, how much coverage is required and where do you buy that from?
As for the rest of your post, I do agree with parts of it, as they stand alone, but not necessarily as a response to my own post. It's as if my words triggered a chain of thought in you that is somewhat tangential to the message I was trying to convey. There are layers to every discussion, and while I was addressing one layer, you were responding to another. I also disagree with other parts, most particularly where, by responding directly to me, you seem to be implying that I'm immoral and further, where your "if that is insulting, so be it," is a tidy bit of arrogance.
I suspect that with respect to the moral question of providing informed consent that I'd find you at least a bit on the "immoral" side. But you're in a large company there, e.g., most of the industry.

As far as, "so be it," I mean that. There's no reason for me to pull my punches, if I do (or for that matter you do) that only reduces what might be learned. But don't take it personally, you are well in the majority of the industry, if that helps.
 
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