In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[ScubaSteve1962]

You're missing the point. There is nothing preventing you from asking questions anywhere. The point is that people typically don't ask questions because the dives are portrayed as fun, exciting and safe and not potentially dangerous. Also even if they do ask questions, there is often little correlation between the answers and reality.

Are we talking Discover Scuba, or certified divers? How could a certified diver not know that there are dangers involved? Even a newbie should know this! Most of the things we've discussed was covered in open water, so to think all diving sites are the same means you weren't paying attention when you were reading your manual.

Yet another good reason for shore diving.

flots.

Sure if that's your thing.

 

[Mike]

As pointed out by others once you start taking money for a service, hold yourself out as an expert and make claims about the safety of your practices you definitley will become responsible in many courts.

... if you're diving in the United States.

 

[cvchief]

Exactly. This is embodied in my tagline. Here is your comment:

"I mean I think if a diver starts to head for the surface, buddy or not the DM ought to try to figure out what is going on. If a diver is going up early some thing is wrong."

My opinion is that it should not take a lot of change or effort to assume that new divers are at higher risk. That means you watch them closer. You verify that they are ok. If it means holding their hands until they get back on the boat....DO IT.

......
The crux of my position is that some changes may well go a long way to minimizing non-medical scuba related deaths and missing divers.

PROTECT OUR NOVICE COZUMEL DIVERS - Improved oversight, guidance and training is cheaper than complacency.

GOAL: ZERO non-medical diver deaths. ZERO missing divers.

Ron,

Maybe I am spoiled again. Is it common practice to let newbies or newbie teams run to the surface alone? I don't know if you want to comment on your op of choice, but what do they do if a diver starts for the surface? My understanding of newbies and diving leads me to believe that it is NOT uncommon for new divers to freak over something and start for the surface. I just assumed that ANY DM seeing that will go for that diver and see what is up and either calm them and bring them back or deliver them to the boat. Of course the DM has to see it and certainly a diver could bolt and get themselves lost without the DM seeing in time to intervene, I guess.

I sort of feel like most OPS do a good job. Fin's thing about no one caters to newbies is not accurate either I think. This isn't mindless :cheerleader:, but my op is known for taking care of newbies. That was how I hooked up there. I guess Fin might not like them as sometimes we cater to the newbies when choosing a dive site. For me I don't care. I have yet to have a dive that wasn't good. Heck I have been given the final say on a dive site and I shrug my shoulders. I sure my op is not alone in catering to new divers. I imagine they watch those new divers closely too.

Of course I don't know that I would seriously start a ad campaign to have all new divers. New divers are a PIA. I know I was asking stupid questions all the time. I need more weight, I need less weight, my mask leaks, my mask fogs, what was that thing with the things sticking of its thing we saw back there at the place, what if I have to pee, these fins are too small, too big, this reg mouthpiece is too big, too small, my octo is free flowing, hold my hand while I flail around like an idiot, I am about to roll around in hydroids please come stop me. (Ok, I didn't do all of that, but I have seen most of it.... I was worrying to much about BS crap and asking alot of dumb questions) You got to have the patience of Job to put up with that. You just have to want to say, "Just shut up, dive and look at the D$#% turtles...."

How many deaths or missing divers have occurred in the last year? I will tell you this, it is WAY less than car and moped crashes. It strikes me that a campaign to promote protecting newbies and reducing deaths says OPs don't do enough for newbies and too many people are being killed. I don't think that is a fair message. Seriously, don't people die scuba diving all over the world? I just don't like something that, in effect, says Cozumel has a problem. Maybe a better tag line is would be something encouraging new divers to seek an OP that is prepared to handle them and fulfull their needs or at least as much as they can really figure out what their needs are.

 

[flots am]

Are we talking Discover Scuba, or certified divers? How could a certified diver not know that there are dangers involved? Even a newbie should know this! Most of the things we've discussed was covered in open water, so to think all diving sites are the same means you weren't paying attention when you were reading your manual.

"Knowing there are dangers involved" is quite different from being told flat out that a specific dive is over a wall that descends far past where recreational divers can survive, that there is boat traffic above that regularly causes injury, amputations and death, and that a large portion of fatalities occur when a single diver surfaces alone and fails to stay there.

Also, I don't recall anyplace in the OW book that says that a new diver probably isn't qualified yet to dive in common tropical vacation dive destinations.

Additionally even if not spelled out, new divers have been conditioned by their training to "trust professionals". Considering the things that the instructor has already told them to do, and that they have more-or-less safely done, a divemaster that points to the ocean and says "jump in" is not likely to raise a lot of questions or concern.

flots.

 

[cvchief]

"Knowing there are dangers involved" is quite different from being told flat out that a specific dive is over a wall that descends far past where recreational divers can survive, that there is boat traffic above that regularly causes injury, amputations and death, and that a large portion of fatalities occur when a single diver surfaces alone and fails to stay there.
flots.

Where exactly is this place where divers are run over by boats regularly?

 

[diverrex]

Where exactly is this place where divers are run over by boats regularly?

Actually I think it might be Florida.

 

[flots am]

Where exactly is this place where divers are run over by boats regularly?

That was fast. I expected to have to wait until after lunch for someone to say this.

You can have your pick.

flots.

 

[cvchief]

That was fast. I expected to have to wait until after lunch for someone to say this.

You can have your pick.

flots.

Ah, so we are talking about people being hit in Florida. Didn't see any Mexico in the top listings. So, what exactly does that have to do with:[h=1]In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?[/h]
As a side note I did hear of someone who doesn't like to shop at Mega, because years ago the old owner of the company's yacht ran over someone in the water. He is dead now and the son runs the company I think.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Also, I don't recall anyplace in the OW book that says that a new diver probably isn't qualified yet to dive in common tropical vacation dive destinations.

Why wouldn't a newbie be able to dive in common tropical vacation dive distinations? I and probably many others here did there certification dives in those places! And chapter 3 of PADI OW "The Dive Enivronment" tells about some to the different conditions you might face.

Additionally even if not spelled out, new divers have been conditioned by their training to "trust professionals". Considering the things that the instructor has already told them to do, and that they have more-or-less safely done, a divemaster that points to the ocean and says "jump in" is not likely to raise a lot of questions or concern.

flots.

And that's depends on the instructor, I ask questions, I've been on the boat when others have asked questions. The last dive I was on there were 2 newbies that had about 10 dives, including cert dives in a lake, this was their first tropical ocean dive, and they were asking all kinds of questions of the divemaster and others on the boat. My dive buddy was from Spain never dove in Fla, and was asking me and the divemaster all kinds of questions. After the dive there were even more questions. If the divemaster tell you the depth is 100' and at 110' you're still desending stop the dive master and raise some concern, you don't keep going.

---------- Post added April 9th, 2012 at 11:47 AM ----------

Ron,

Maybe I am spoiled again. Is it common practice to let newbies or newbie teams run to the surface alone? I don't know if you want to comment on your op of choice, but what do they do if a diver starts for the surface? My understanding of newbies and diving leads me to believe that it is NOT uncommon for new divers to freak over something and start for the surface. I just assumed that ANY DM seeing that will go for that diver and see what is up and either calm them and bring them back or deliver them to the boat. Of course the DM has to see it and certainly a diver could bolt and get themselves lost without the DM seeing in time to intervene, I guess.

I sort of feel like most OPS do a good job. Fin's thing about no one caters to newbies is not accurate either I think. This isn't mindless :cheerleader:, but my op is known for taking care of newbies. That was how I hooked up there. I guess Fin might not like them as sometimes we cater to the newbies when choosing a dive site. For me I don't care. I have yet to have a dive that wasn't good. Heck I have been given the final say on a dive site and I shrug my shoulders. I sure my op is not alone in catering to new divers. I imagine they watch those new divers closely too.

Unless you tell the divemaster, how would they know you're a newbie? Some ask, some don't. I've never seen anyone just shot to the top, most go to the divemaster or their buddy and try to fix it underwater if not the divemaster will take them up while the others wait, but this was on shallow dives. The only time solo safety stops are done is when someone is low on air, they usually take the group back to the boat and watch while the person surfaces and gets back to the tow line.

Of course I don't know that I would seriously start a ad campaign to have all new divers. New divers are a PIA. I know I was asking stupid questions all the time. I need more weight, I need less weight, my mask leaks, my mask fogs, what was that thing with the things sticking of its thing we saw back there at the place, what if I have to pee, these fins are too small, too big, this reg mouthpiece is too big, too small, my octo is free flowing, hold my hand while I flail around like an idiot, I am about to roll around in hydroids please come stop me. (Ok, I didn't do all of that, but I have seen most of it.... I was worrying to much about BS crap and asking alot of dumb questions) You got to have the patience of Job to put up with that. You just have to want to say, "Just shut up, dive and look at the D$#% turtles....

Those were not stupid questions, how can you learn if you don't ask questions?
.

How many deaths or missing divers have occurred in the last year? I will tell you this, it is WAY less than car and moped crashes. It strikes me that a campaign to promote protecting newbies and reducing deaths says OPs don't do enough for newbies and too many people are being killed. I don't think that is a fair message. Seriously, don't people die scuba diving all over the world? I just don't like something that, in effect, says Cozumel has a problem. Maybe a better tag line is would be something encouraging new divers to seek an OP that is prepared to handle them and fulfull their needs or at least as much as they can really figure out what their needs are.

It's funny how here in Atl theres almost an automobile fatality everyday, yet we get up and drive everyday. But let CNN say something about a missing diver, or diver fatality and people will say they are crazy for being out there anyway

 

[Ron Lee]

Maybe I am spoiled again. Is it common practice to let newbies or newbie teams run to the surface alone? I don't know if you want to comment on your op of choice, but what do they do if a diver starts for the surface? My understanding of newbies and diving leads me to believe that it is NOT uncommon for new divers to freak over something and start for the surface. I just assumed that ANY DM seeing that will go for that diver and see what is up and either calm them and bring them back or deliver them to the boat. Of course the DM has to see it and certainly a diver could bolt and get themselves lost without the DM seeing in time to intervene, I guess.

I do not know how common it is. Did the DM in the March 28 incident go up to check on the woman? Should he have done that? Was he ethically bound to do so? The woman was certified and supposedly capable of making that ascent safely yet she is dead. I am not trying to blame anyone. My view, and it may be flawed, is that simple changes to policies and procedures can be implemented that recognize that novice divers are at higher risk. Those policies/procedures could reach or get close to a goal of zero non-medical diver deaths and zero missing divers and ideally with minimal impact to most divers.

How many deaths or missing divers have occurred in the last year? I will tell you this, it is WAY less than car and moped crashes. It strikes me that a campaign to promote protecting newbies and reducing deaths says OPs don't do enough for newbies and too many people are being killed. I don't think that is a fair message. Seriously, don't people die scuba diving all over the world? I just don't like something that, in effect, says Cozumel has a problem. Maybe a better tag line is would be something encouraging new divers to seek an OP that is prepared to handle them and fulfull their needs or at least as much as they can really figure out what their needs are.

I am a novice on Scubaboard. Yet there may have been a campaign in the recent past to eradicate carbon monoxide in tanks. Was CO a problem? I have no idea. Yet that campaign (if it existed) suggested a problem on Cozumel. If my reading since joining Scubaboard is correct, some people took the initiative to install CO detectors in one or more tank filling facilities. How is recognizing an area that could use improvement...and taking steps to fix it a problem?

I have not taken the position that Cozumel is all advanced diving and not suitable for novice divers. Yet one or more others here have. I cannot do much except express an opinion. Dive ops on Cozumel know far better than I about what happens there. I suspect that they know that I am right. It is up to them to get over any possible cultural/legal/liability differences that may get in the way of accepting that improvements can be made that can reduce or eliminate future events like occurred on March 28, 2012.

PROTECT OUR NOVICE COZUMEL DIVERS - Improved oversight, guidance and training is cheaper than complacency.

GOALS: ZERO non-medical diver deaths. ZERO missing divers.