In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[flots am]

Why wouldn't a newbie be able to dive in common tropical vacation dive distinations? I and probably many others here did there certification dives in those places! And chapter 3 of PADI OW "The Dive Enivronment" tells about some to the different conditions you might face.

You're absolutely correct. There's nothing in the ocean that wasn't covered in Chapter 3.

And that's depends on the instructor, I ask questions, I've been on the boat when others have asked questions. The last dive I was on there were 2 newbies that had about 10 dives, including cert dives in a lake, this was their first tropical ocean dive, and they were asking all kinds of questions of the divemaster and others on the boat. My dive buddy was from Spain never dove in Fla, and was asking me and the divemaster all kinds of questions. After the dive there were even more questions. If the divemaster tell you the depth is 100' and at 110' you're still desending stop the dive master and raise some concern, you don't keep going.

Let me know how that works out for you.

Unless you tell the divemaster, how would they know you're a newbie? Some ask, some don't. I've never seen anyone just shot to the top, most go to the divemaster or their buddy and try to fix it underwater if not the divemaster will take them up while the others wait, but this was on shallow dives. The only time solo safety stops are done is when someone is low on air, they usually take the group back to the boat and watch while the person surfaces and gets back to the tow line.

Yes, divers never bolt for the surface, and the DM, who has seen hundreds, if not thousands of new divers, has no idea if you're new and always makes sure you're safe.

flots.

 

[cvchief]

I do not know how common it is. Did the DM in the March 28 incident go up to check on the woman? Should he have done that? Was he ethically bound to do so? The woman was certified and supposedly capable of making that ascent safely yet she is dead. I am not trying to blame anyone. My view, and it make be flawed, is that simple changes to policies and procedures can be implemented that recognize that novice divers are at higher risk. Those policies/procedures could reach or get close to my goal of zero non-medical diver deaths and zero missing divers and ideally with minimal impact to most divers.

I laud your motivations. Discussing that last incident, I don't know what the DM knew, so I can't offer an opinion on his actions. I personally think a DM shouldn't willing allow an accending diver to leave his sight before he is sighted by the boat in Cozumel.

I am a novice on Scubaboard. Yet there may have been a campaign in the recent past to eradicate carbon monoxide in tanks. Was CO a problem? I have no idea. Yet that campaign (if it existed) suggested a problem on Cozumel. If my reading since joining Scubaboard is correct, some people took the initiative to install CO detectors in one or more tank filling facilities. How is recognizing an area that could use improvement...and taking steps to fix it a problem?

I have not taken the position that Cozumel is all advanced diving and not suitable for novice divers. Yet one or more others here have.

I cannot do much except express an opinion. Dive ops on Cozumel know far better than I about what happens there. I suspect that they know that I am right. It is up to them to get over any possible cultural/legal/liability differences that may get in the way of accepting that improvements can be made that can reduce or eliminate future events like occurred on March 28, 2012.

I agree totally in learning from incidents and preventing others. What I guess I would propose is saying policy changes are needed is to imply that bad policies exist. Can you say a policy change would have prevented the most recent loss? If you say yes, then you are saying the DM and/or the OP failed the diver, aren't you? If no, then you accept policy changes won't help. Does that make sense? I think it is different from adding a piece of equipment to a fill station. Those CO people are waging a world wide war on CO. They don't say test every tank in Cozumel, they say test every tank. Make it global and not pointing the finger at Cozumel is all I am saying.

Please don't take it as a shot at you, Ron. I think your ideas add a lot to the discussion. When Brules finishes the dinner and the website, I am sure he will use lots of your ideas in his new op! :shocked2:

 

[Ron Lee]

The DM, who has seen hundreds, if not thousands of new divers, has no idea if you're new......

I question this. When I fill out waiver and related paperwork, they ask for my number of total dives and dives in the last year, cert level, etc. So they should know that you are a new diver.

And if there is a mixup in notifying the DM, the novice diver should tell the DM of their experience level.

PROTECT OUR NOVICE COZUMEL DIVERS - Improved oversight, guidance and training is cheaper than complacency.

GOALS: ZERO non-medical diver deaths. ZERO missing divers.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

You're absolutely correct. There's nothing in the ocean that wasn't covered in Chapter 3.

Didn't say it covered everything, but your statement implied it wasn't there at all.

Let me know how that works out for you.

It worked out fine, we went back to the boat and went to another site!!

Yes, that's always how it works. The DM has no idea if you're new and always makes sure you're safe.

flots.

That's the American way, always depend on someone else to make sure everything is safe, because we don't have the ability to know the difference!! (have to put a sticker on a mower because we don't have since enough to know not to stick your foot under it while it's running!!)

 

[Mike]

The only thing that needs to change in Cozumel is new divers need to remember their training and their allowed dive depths and speak up when they hear the dive they are going on is outside their limits, be that at the dive shop, on the boat on the way out or during the dive briefing. Any boat dive I've been on when this happens the dive master always makes an adjustment to the dive site, has the divers stick next to him like glue, or has them dive shallower and follow the group from above.

Other than that, divers need to be better buddies, always stay together during descent, on the dive and while surfacing. Dive at their experience level and training level and stop looking for someone else to blame but themselves for anything that happens when the break these rules.

 

[flots am]

I question this. When I fill out waiver and related paperwork, they ask for my number of total dives and dives in the last year, cert level, etc. So they should know that you are a new diver.

And if there is a mixup in notifying the DM, the novice diver should tell the DM of their experience level.

I was using sarcasm. New divers are very easy to spot, especially with a logbook where the last dive says "6".

That's the American way, always depend on someone else to make sure everything is safe, because we don't have the ability to know the difference!! (have to put a sticker on a mower because we don't have since enough to know not to stick your foot under it while it's running!!)

If you had actually read my posts, you would know that I don't want any DMs, anywhere.

If a diver doesn't feel fully qualified to safely plan and execute a dive, start to finish, with just a buddy, including contingencies and emergencies, he shouldn't do the dive.

This would eliminate a huge portion of injuries and fatalities around the world, because divers would be forced to examine and acknowledge their training and limitations and dive appropriately.

This would also mean that infrequent-tourist-diver business would drop off in areas that have mostly deep drift dives, and would increase in areas that have quiet shallow reefs.

flots.

 

[boulderjohn]

How could a certified diver not know that there are dangers involved? Even a newbie should know this! Most of the things we've discussed was covered in open water, so to think all diving sites are the same means you weren't paying attention when you were reading your manual.

Because I feel strongly that standard recreational diving does not adequately prepare divers to plan their own diving in anything but stellar conditions, I created a very extensive PADI Distinctive Specialty in Dive Planning. It has an entire section on determining the suitability of a dive site for your ability. I firmly believe that most divers cannot possibly know if a given dive site is suitable without the benefit of local knowledge. Local knowledge comes from people who know the site. In Cozumel, that would be the dive operator. If a dive operator knows a diver's ability and sends that diver out to a site, I think if is more than reasonable for a diver to assume that the site is within his or her ability. You can ask some questions, but you can't ask all questions. "Is the current too much for me?" Good question, but how does a new diver know that answer with any level of certainty?

Additionally even if not spelled out, new divers have been conditioned by their training to "trust professionals". Considering the things that the instructor has already told them to do, and that they have more-or-less safely done, a divemaster that points to the ocean and says "jump in" is not likely to raise a lot of questions or concern.

Exactly. Diver's rely on that professional to use professional judgment. They are paying them in large part for that judgment.

I question this. When I fill out waiver and related paperwork, they ask for my number of total dives and dives in the last year, cert level, etc. So they should know that you are a new diver.

Many operators do this. Many do not.

 

[Laurie S.]

And because of this you can't ask questions? If you're booking through the cruise ship, you can't ask what op will they be using and contact them? If you book yourself you can't ask the op questions?



Through my research the mainland U.S. is the only place that doesn't put DM in the water. There may be some other island may do it, but I haven't ran across any yet, and I'm always looking at different places to go. Some may do it for shore diving, but when going out on a boat most require it.

That's not true. I just dove at Samana in the Dominican Republic and no DM went with us. We didn't want one, and didn't need one, so it worked out just fine. We also were able to dive without the DM in Roatan (twice), Belize (twice), Costa Maya (twice), and Aruba, all boat dives. There was a DM on the boat, but because my dive buddy is a master instructor, they were more than happy to herd cats and let us do our own thing. We were out of sight of the DMs the majority of the time and perfectly happy about it.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

If you had actually read my posts, you would know that I don't want any DMs, anywhere.

Yea I missed that one

If a diver doesn't feel fully qualified to safely plan and execute a dive, start to finish, with just a buddy, including contingencies and emergencies, he shouldn't do the dive.

This should be the same with a DM in the water, if you don't feel comfortable with the breifing, don't do the dive.

This would eliminate a huge portion of injuries and fatalities around the world, because divers would be forced to examine and acknowledge their training and limitations and dive appropriately.

This would also mean that infrequent-tourist-diver business would drop off in areas that have mostly deep drift dives, and would increase in areas that have quiet shallow reefs.

flots.

Don't know about it eliminating them because here on SB there seem to be just as many diver fatalities with OPs as there are with just buddy's. And as far as the tourism, when I did the search for Coz Ops most stated the sites they visited and there is also a site map that you can look at. Seems like there was something for everyone. If people don't take the time to look at this and just go with any op you get what you get. If you're using a travel agent be specific in what you want, if you're using the cruise ship, be specific, if you're using your LDS be specific people can't read your mind, and don't know your diving ability.

 

[Laurie S.]

I question this. When I fill out waiver and related paperwork, they ask for my number of total dives and dives in the last year, cert level, etc. So they should know that you are a new diver.

And if there is a mixup in notifying the DM, the novice diver should tell the DM of their experience level.

I was rather shocked by the paperwork we had to fill out for our last ever cruise ship dive at Grand Turk last month. We were not asked how many dives we had made or when our last dive was. It did ask what agency certified us but I don't think it even asked for the year of certification. It did ask for our certification level. They did ask to see our cards, but not our dive logs. It was the worst dive experience I've ever had with an operator.