In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[mstevens]

I teach shooting both SMBs and lift bags with both spools and reels. I have shot bags at all kinds of depths from 6 feet to depths far below the maximum depths of the certification level in your profile. I have no idea why the mechanics are significantly different between 30 feet and 9 feet. When I was practicing to make sure I looked good prior to being tested on this for my Tech Instructor performance test I practiced it repeatedly in a pool that had a maximum depth of 8 feet. When I did it at depth (considerably below 30 feet) for my performance test, that practice served me well.

This isn't rocket science. It is common sense not to worry about filling it completely during practice sessions. Go to Youtube and look up any of the 50 or so video demonstrations of shooting a bag in a pool and see how many put more than a breath or two in the SMB. When I have been in Cozumel, I have never see a DM completely fill a bag--it floats limply on the surface each time. Most of the bags I own will vent extra air in case of overinflation. I only have one that doesn't. I have seriously overinflated it on a number of occasions. It sits rock hard on the surface.
And that is important for what reason? I admit the the deepest that I personally have ever been when reeling in a line for a bag is not over 180 feet. I found that the technique at 180 feet is remarkably similar to the technique at 10 feet. It starts to get repetitive after a while.

It seems clear that you have shot bags from depth. It also seems that you're saying that for this skill there is no significant difference between practice in a shallow pool and actual performance at depth. If this were true, divers who had only ever practiced in a shallow pool should find the experience the same when shooting a bag in "real life" for the very first time on a drift dive in Cozumel. Are you claiming that's the case? If so, is it also the case that you see no value to other open-water experience? Should we train and certify divers only in the pool and not require any open-water experience prior to certification?

Feel free to go back and read my posts - I have no doubt that pool practice is valuable, but I do not think that it is identical to open-water experience. That appears to be where we differ, although I still find it a bit difficult to believe how persistent you are in appearing to claim that pools equal oceans. Are you sure you're not arguing a different point from the one that I'm making?

 

[fred3798]

This just sounds like a Op with a bad DM, yes the op should be held responsible because this probably wasn't his first time doing this, but what really stands out to me is that buddy teams were not assigned and no one said anything about it, no one took it upon themselves to say will you be my buddy? They just once again blindly went along with the DM. Isn't this a good place for us to let newbies (including me) know that you can speak up, ask questions not just follow along because it's what everyone else is doing? I've seen people on here ask about dive ops with guides and people reply asking why do they want a guide, they should be able after OW training to go out on almost any dive as a buddy team. IMHO and just mine, no one should do something that they are uncomfortable with regardless what everyone else thinks.

Also as divers who are certified, does the dive op need to inform us of our certification agency recommendations IE PADI or NAUI as mentioned in the transcripts? Isn't this something that was taught in OW?

As a society, we do not practice the rugged individualism you preach. We expect people to rely on experts even when the expert suggests something that may be at odds with our trainig. It is human nature to trust someone whom you feel has superior skills or knowledge. Most people fear looking or sounding stupid in questioning an expert. Yes, people do jump off cliffs just because someone tells them to - we learned that in the psychological experiements in the 50s in which people thought they were inflictng significant electric shocks to shrieking victims and kept doing it just becuase the guy in the lab coat told them to. We post speed limits even though we have all learned the speed limit. We require manufacturers to label the most obvious safety warnings on their goods (like "do not put this plastic bagon your head" or "hot cofee do not spill on your genetals"). We expect the average person to behave reasonably - not perfectly- and we require the same of others.

 

[Mike]

As a society, we do not practice the rugged individualism you preach. We expect people to rely on experts even when the expert suggests something that may be at odds with our trainig. It is human nature to trust someone whom you feel has superior skills or knowledge. Most people fear looking or sounding stupid in questioning an expert. Yes, people do jump off cliffs just because someone tells them to - we learned that in the psychological experiements in the 50s in which people thought they were inflictng significant electric shocks to shrieking victims and kept doing it just becuase the guy in the lab coat told them to. We post speed limits even though we have all learned the speed limit. We require manufacturers to label the most obvious safety warnings on their goods (like "do not put this plastic bagon your head" or "hot cofee do not spill on your genetals"). We expect the average person to behave reasonably - not perfectly- and we require the same of others.

We are a society that has unfortunately gotten positive reinforcement in always having a scapegoat.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

As a society, we do not practice the rugged individualism you preach. We expect people to rely on experts even when the expert suggests something that may be at odds with our trainig. It is human nature to trust someone whom you feel has superior skills or knowledge. Most people fear looking or sounding stupid in questioning an expert. Yes, people do jump off cliffs just because someone tells them to - we learned that in the psychological experiements in the 50s in which people thought they were inflictng significant electric shocks to shrieking victims and kept doing it just becuase the guy in the lab coat told them to. We post speed limits even though we have all learned the speed limit. We require manufacturers to label the most obvious safety warnings on their goods (like "do not put this plastic bagon your head" or "hot cofee do not spill on your genetals"). We expect the average person to behave reasonably - not perfectly- and we require the same of others.

It's a kind of hard to understand your point when you use some of your references IE: speed limits are posted because the speed limit is not the same everywhere, (recreational diving recommended limits are) warnings are put on plastic bags and coffee because some individual put the bag on their head and died, and some individual spilled hot coffee and burned themselves (you can't breath underwater so you need to be trained to dive) and some lawyer decided to file a lawsuits, and we live in a society that loves to lay blame on some else. But the point is I wouldn't expect an OP to tell me all PADI and NAUI guidelines before every dive. But with that lawsuit that's where were headed. You should know before the boat pulls away from the dock the depth at which you're expecting to go. But as stated and what this post was started with, someone let someone else make all the plans for them IE: the cruise ship. It's just like on some post I've seen that some divers assume that every op has their own boats and guides in the water. You didn't ask any questions when you contacted them, you didn't ask any questions when you got to the shop, you didn't ask any questions when you got to the dock, you didn't ask any questions when you went out on the boat, but when things go wrong it's all their fault. Ops do have a responsibility to the divers but when they forget that responsibility it's up to the individual to speak up. Because most times your life depends on it.

 

[flots am]

You didn't ask any questions when you contacted them, you didn't ask any questions when you got to the shop, you didn't ask any questions when you got to the dock, you didn't ask any questions when you went out on the boat, but when things go wrong it's all their fault. Ops do have a responsibility to the divers but when they forget that responsibility it's up to the individual to speak up. Because most times your life depends on it.

Knowing that you need to ask questions means that you have prior knowledge that there might be something to ask questions about.

When diving in Cozumel, whether from a cruise ship or not, you show up at the shop or boat, sign some waivers the DM gives a dive briefing that hopefully describes the dive site and procedures, and then says "follow me".

There is generally no indication that any specific questions are necessary. Nobody would think to ask "are you going to take me far beyond my training or into water that's unlike anyplace I've been before?" Nobody would ask "Are you actually going to follow this dive plan or are you gong to blow the maximum depth and run me out of air?

flots.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Knowing that you need to ask questions means that you have prior knowledge that there might be something to ask questions about.

When diving in Cozumel, whether from a cruise ship or not, you show up at the shop or boat, sign some waivers the DM gives a dive briefing that hopefully describes the dive site and procedures, and then says "follow me".

There is generally no indication that any specific questions are necessary. Nobody would think to ask "are you going to take me far beyond my training or into water that's unlike anyplace I've been before?" Nobody would ask "Are you actually going to follow this dive plan or are you gong to blow the maximum depth and run me out of air?

flots.

So is Coz different than most places? You don't need prior knowledge to ask simple questions. Even though I've only got less than one year certified and 26 dives,I've always asked questions. I've dove in Hawaii, Jamaica and Key Largo, and I've always picked the op because of sites and variety that they offer, for instance when do you go deep and when do you go shallow, how many boats do you have. I didn't just sign the waiver and get on the boat. All this is part of the dive planning that was part of our training. When I did my deep certification, on the way down we got to 108' I stopped banged my tank to get the instructors attention and let him know I wasn't going any further!! When we were doing our skills, at 100' I let him know when I got to 1000 psi and we shared air while waiting on someone to finish their skill, not when I got real low and put myself in an OOA situation. I don't know if it was you or someone else who stated you would go along with the crowd because you didn't want to make a scene, then when the crowd gets you in trouble, don't complain.

 

[flots am]

So is Coz different than most places?

Yes, because it's mostly drift/wall dives. Many of the other islands have much less current and are over a reasonable bottom.

Also, many of the other islands don't require a DM, which makes the divers more aware of their own capabilities and limitations when planning a dive.

flots.

 

[diverrex]

The question of responsibility is not an either/or situation. The individual diver is responsible for himself and his buddy. But just because the diver is responsible does not mean that the dive op & DM do not have any responsibility. As pointed out by others once you start taking money for a service, hold yourself out as an expert and make claims about the safety of your practices you definitley will become responsible in many courts.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Yes, because it's mostly drift/wall dives. Many of the other islands have much less current and are over a reasonable bottom.

And because of this you can't ask questions? If you're booking through the cruise ship, you can't ask what op will they be using and contact them? If you book yourself you can't ask the op questions?

Also, many of the other islands don't require a DM, which makes the divers more aware of their own capabilities and limitations when planning a dive.

flots.

Through my research the mainland U.S. is the only place that doesn't put DM in the water. There may be some other island may do it, but I haven't ran across any yet, and I'm always looking at different places to go. Some may do it for shore diving, but when going out on a boat most require it.

 

[flots am]

And because of this you can't ask questions? If you're booking through the cruise ship, you can't ask what op will they be using and contact them? If you book yourself you can't ask the op questions?

You're missing the point. There is nothing preventing you from asking questions anywhere. The point is that people typically don't ask questions because the dives are portrayed as fun, exciting and safe and not potentially dangerous. Also even if they do ask questions, there is often little correlation between the answers and reality.

Through my research the mainland U.S. is the only place that doesn't put DM in the water. There may be some other island may do it, but I haven't ran across any yet, and I'm always looking at different places to go. Some may do it for shore diving, but when going out on a boat most require it.

Yet another good reason for shore diving.

flots.