What's with the UTD haters?

[wedivebc]

"When men are full of envy they disparage everything, whether it be good or bad."

"Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind."

"A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows the public opinion."

Bob . . .it's my instructors, dive-ops guides & managers, teammates' and other divers' around the world over the years who've actually dove with me --those are the opinions I value the most. Not the internet gossip generated & spewed forth here.

And certainly not from people like you, gearhound & tiki bill and others here who profess to make silly "materialistic" or "elitist" causal ascriptions, and anecdotes like yours above. Non sequitur Bob -you don't know me and I don't care to know you.

Thank you Kevrumbo for answering the OP question so succinctly. You have certainly epitomized the attitude that provoked this thread on one post.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Thank you Kevrumbo for answering the OP question so succinctly. You have certainly epitomized the attitude that provoked this thread on one post.

... which is unfortunate, because it in no way epitomizes the UTD people I know ... most of whom I consider friends ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rhwestfall]

the term "extremists" seems to fit many situations, usually not referencing anything good or productive......

 

[Kevrumbo]

Seriously UTD! Is this your best and brightest?

I think the situation has been diffused. Everybody is getting along! Yet you keep trying to stir things up. So I'll bite.

I think you're mistaking people's pity for envy. I'm pretty sure none of us envy you. I think your defensiveness comes from the realization that people don't hate UTD, they just hate you! Me, I couldn't be bothered.

Show of hands...who else here has posted their gas bill to prove their worthiness? Anybody?

Dude, you're the one who said "if y'all haters can't afford to pay, to do it right ... then don't play."

That makes you the materialist and elitist ... I'm pointing out that doing it right has nothing to do with money ... or gear.

If I was Andrew, I'd be embarrassed to read some of your comments and admit that I know you ... and I'm CERTAIN that you don't speak for any of the UTD folks I know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thank you Kevrumbo for answering the OP question so succinctly. You have certainly epitomized the attitude that provoked this thread on one post.

Y'all provoked it. I'm simply the mirror reflecting back all the hostility & ill will you project.

It's no fault of mine you Hater's don't like what you see. . .

That about sums it up.

Some might find this arrogant and elitist. A few know better and attribute it to the individual. Others unfamiliar with the personalities might equate the attitude to the phrase "do it right" and attribute it to DIR/GUE/UTD as an organizational opinion. They may respond negatively because a.) they are already playing just fine thank you and b.) who are you to say they are not doing it right - (especially using that rig).

Of course, I know of the individual and am under no such delusion.

Nope, I don't know you DaleC . . .so how far do you intend on taking innuendo to outright libel, DaleC?

 

[DaleC]

Gee Kev, very insightful. Do you think.. perhaps.. that explains the way people react to you?

Bob, I wish I could have liked that previous post about skill not gear multiple times. Spot on!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Y'all provoked it. I'm simply the mirror reflecting back all the hostility & ill will you project.

It's no fault of mine you Hater's don't like what you see. . .

... but I projected no hostility ... I simply used an anecdote (with myself as the fall guy) to provide commentary on something you said ... specifically that if you can't pay, don't play.

There's plenty of players out there who have mad skills who don't spend, or need to spend, a ton of money to play. There's no hate or hostility in saying so ... I simply disagree with your premise.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[victorzamora]

I think you might be misunderstanding "compatible". While UTD does try to promote "mixed team" diving, this is a bit of a red herring. In my experience, the "compatibility" (consistency) of the Z System is more from the wearer's point of view than the buddy/team's point of view.

Gotcha. Well, I still don't see how it's maintaining consistency other than the fact that you have a manifold on your back. It's in a different location, and you have a drastically different array of gear. To me, gear configuration is a tool. If I need to use a hammer, I need to know how to use a hammer. If I need a screwdriver, I need to know how to use a screwdriver. There's no point in compromising the performance of a hammer just to make it work sort-of like a screwdriver. Plus, it seems like such a drastically different setup that your choices are much different diving sidemount when compared to doubles that the emergency procedures aren't the same. Even you admitted the consistency isn't "perfect." Plus, what in the "Basic 6" is there that you do differently in Z-manifold compared to what I do in independent SM tanks? I'll tell you: not a thing.

Also, the most outspoken UTD divers on here are very clear that it's consistency for the mixed team....not for you. The literature on the Z-manifold seems to point in the same direction....but that could've been due to confirmational bias.

 

[gearhound]

Y'all provoked it. I'm simply the mirror reflecting back all the hostility & ill will you project.

It's no fault of mine you Hater's don't like what you see. . .

So your response is "I'm rubber and you're glue"? That's so gangsta! I love it! Keep em coming! Did you get that out of a book that you paid a million dollars for? Can you post a scan of the receipt?

 

[alainnajm]

i am happy to read some of the comments. some of the people who stand strongly against the Z-manifold still show respect to other areas of UTD, its teaching, its instructors, and its divers. great to differentiate!!
some felt provoked and it's understandable…it's very hard to discuss on forums where it's almost a one-way communication.

i am a UTD sidemount instructor. and once again: i will not go into the details of why i teach/recommend Z-manifold. not because i am avoiding the topic, but because it's very hard to explain my point of view on a forum. but i am willing to discuss it if anyone has some specific questions/comments without digressing into a never-ending debate.
here's my take on the matter: everything is in the DETAILS. we all know that what differentiates a good diver from a great diver is in the DETAILS, or an agency from another.
i was initially trained on the independent sidemount system; it worked for me. but i found some DETAILS in the Z-manifold to be very useful and this is why i went for it and now i teach it.

and one thing i love about UTD is the flexibility: all it takes is one email/phonecall/text to challenge an idea or protocol or whatever, and if you make a solid case it WILL happen. you might think this is just talk, but i've had many opportunities to put it to the test…and it WORKED!!
to me, and to my teaching values, the z-manifold fits perfectly. if it doesn't for work for someone else, i totally understand.

i can safely speak on behalf of every other UTD instructor and diver when i say that UTD is much bigger than this. why we chose UTD and why we are happy to be a part of this great agency doesn't only revolve around the z-manifold, but exceeds it to much deeper levels.

now please, if anyone would like to challenge the Z-manifold, i will be more than happy to discuss. but please for the sake of clarity, try to make it specific. who knows? i am always open to be convinced

 

[DevonDiver]

Is the Z-manifold compulsory on UTD Sidemount courses? Or are UTD students educated pros/cons and allowed to decide for themselves?

From personal experience, I've had one UTD sidemount qualified diver attend training with me; using the z-manifold, on wreck training. They suffered two failures in the manifold system and missed out on dives due to it. I've never had that problem with a 'regular' sidemount diver. Take what you will from a sample size of '1'.

I have had numerous UTD and GUE qualified divers attend for other training courses; sidemount, wreck and technical. Their foundational mastery, coupled with a strong level of motivation to achieve high skill levels, inevitably makes them a dream to teach - and I have also found them to be open-minded and flexible (as a philosophy, I give options and recommendations, never directions).

The only thing I 'hate' about UTD (and GUE) is that it can foster a sense of superiority and egotism amongst some of its students; especially those with lesser experience and/or who have no/little concept of training outside of that fold (and who subsequently judge all other agencies/approaches based upon some disappoints they experienced when first attending entry-level generic scuba training). In that respect, UTD (and GUE) can appeal to some divers for the wrong reasons. Whilst a minority... and not representative... they can easily tarnish opinions. UTD (and GUE) should take greater steps to extinguish that... as part of their mindset development IMHO.

We've seen a good example of that bad mindset in this thread; with some truly obnoxious statements made. So much so, that I've used my 'Ignore' button for the first time in years (I do wish people would stop quoting him...I still have to see that).