How different are tec courses agency to agency

[PfcAJ]

Not accepted because no one's heard of it before. I don't even bother to show my GUE cards when in SE Asia. Heck, I've got quizzical looks here in Florida. The difference is that I can explain GUE because we don't have a language barrier here.

Abroad...not so much.

 

[demed]

I don't really care too much about padis ow program. You can go discuss that over in the basic scuba section.

"Gue version" of a regulator? Wut? The main difference isn't the plastic parts but the fact that it comes with a 40 inch hose that's actually useful in a dir config instead of the 32in (I think it's 32) that normally comes with a scubapro reg. so unless you're picking up 10 dollar hoses, whats the cheaper reg?

dig deeper - since when 1st stages are delivered with a hose?
interesting enough, EE doesn't even sell a halcyon 1st stage\2nd stage combo but only a scubapro - the 7 foot hose is an add on for extra $$$ (Put Another Dollar In or Generating Ulterior Expenses?)

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2015 at 07:04 PM ----------

RSTC has little to do with it. NAUI isn't a member either.

The fact that these folks have never heard if GUE or UTD has a lot to do with it.

and give them a handful more years many won't know the NAUI name either

 

[PfcAJ]

Ah, touche'. You're correct.

the mk25 variant is the same price as SP, however, and the 'halo' (just a g250v) is 20 bucks cheaper than the comparable g260.
https://www.extreme-exposure.com/catalog/164

And you really wanna start comparing cost with a company that offers a 'tactical' version of their regs? Come on dude. THAT'S ridiculous.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

RSTC has little to do with it. NAUI isn't a member either.

The fact that these folks have never heard if GUE or UTD has a lot to do with it.

This. I asked around and even established dive shops in South Asia had no clue what UTD or GUE were. I sent them links to the website along with course descriptions and was told "bring your log book."

 

[TSandM]

This was a thread about technical training. A number of agencies offer it, and we have talked a little bit about how those classes differ.

When we get into the whole open water training topic, things are quite different. The person who is looking for technical training probably understands that there are different agencies, and may have an idea that classes can vary. The person who decides to learn to dive may not know any of those things -- I didn't. That person either doesn't shop, or shops most likely on price.

At one time, I gave a great deal of thought to becoming a GUE recreational instructor. Among other things, I concluded that there was no "pipeline" to feed me students (as there is for the GUE technical instructors). There's no easy way to reach the uncertified person and begin to convince them that better quality training is worth a greater investment in time and money. I think the reason most highly motivated instructors have stayed with the "mainstream" agencies is because one has a better opportunity to reach people that way -- not because the class is better (or necessarily worse), but because the shops and their advertising are the best way to siphon students into the dive training process. A really good quality OW class has the possibility of showing someone what is possible, and motivating them to want to achieve it.

 

[KevinNM]

I know Mer actually does run Rec 1 courses, but she seems to be the only one in the US who has them regularly scheduled, and they are not that common. I have no idea how commonly people run them in Europe.

The pipeline is a problem. Mer assigned the Rec 1 text, and it looks very good, but it takes longer and costs a lot more than the generic discount OW course at Joe's discount diving that people normally stumble into. If you have never heard of it you certainly can't select it, but convincing people of the value of a thorough and expertly taught OW course seems to still a big problem.

 

[boulderjohn]

Instructor part is true but my understanding is that they in order to "teach the world how to dive" PADI has also lowered their standards intentionally as well.

Please provide an example of a lowered standard from say, the last 15 years. For every one you come up with, I will give you 5 examples of increased standards, and I will do that even if I do not agree that it is a lowering of standards. (For example, I don't believe removing buddy breathing is a lowering of standards.)

I have met quite a few people who failed Fundies course but I have yet to find a single person who failed PADI OW or any other course at their recreational level.

That has been true ever since PADI adopted the performance based instructional philosophy, which continues to teach students until they meet the course standards...

I know of a PADI shop that says that we will continue to work with a weak student until they are at a level where we feel we can issue them a card.

...like this. What is so bad about that?

 

[Patoux01]

That has been true ever since PADI adopted the performance based instructional philosophy, which continues to teach students until they meet the course standards...

Except most OW run over 2 days. Have yet to see someone be failed, and trust me I've already seen terrible divers that aren't able to actually swim without being on the ground, are those able to do a mask clearing while neutrally buoyant? I doubt it (had been certified less than 2 weeks earlier).

My issue doesn't lie with the standards, but with people not following them. Unfortunately, PADI doesn't seem to check thoroughly if their instructors actually follow the standards. The PADI shop I've linked to earlier in this thread, received a platinum award from PADI, whatever that should be. While I could understand they don't check everyone, before you give an award to someone you should actually check he deserves it.


I believe it's not too difficult to email each student BEFORE their course telling them what they should expect, rather than after, and encouraging to report certifications that don't meet the standards. Then PADI might be really raising the bar about their certifications. Unfortunately, I don't think they'll do it.

 

[WhiteSands]

The problem is in the scale of size of PADI - they are so large that it is very difficult to keep a tight quality control system in place.

GUE has excellent quality control because they are small enough to make refresher renewals part of the SOP. As a result bad instructors weed out or are corrected far quicker.

But the science, development and materials PADI puts out now are tremendous.

Padi does have excellent pedagogy and excellently produced and professional looking materials.

I think the question is, does PADI *want* to institute tight quality control?
I feel (subjective) that PADI will do whichever brings in more profits.
If it feels tighter quality controls will mean lesser instructors, which equate to smaller profit margins, then I am guessing it won't.

Sorry for the slight derail, but I don't think it is difficult to put in place effective quality controls. I can think of 2 very easy ways to do so, if PADI chose to.

#1. Make instructor evaluation by the trainee compulsory and confidential (online, not readable by instructor). No evaluation? No card.
Include questions in the evaluation, such as, did your instructor conduct a swim test? How many hours of pool session did you have? Have many open water dives did you have? How many minutes and depth were the OW dives? Did you instructor cover the following (list) skills in your training? Etc.

#2. Make standards for passing and failing each class easily available to the student, as a one page printout in the first page of the course materials.

 

[boulderjohn]

So most classes teach all the academic materials, all the pool sessions, and all the open water dives in two days? I've never seen it. My training back in the last millenium took three days, and they only way they could do it was to skip a whole lot of standards. I did not realize until years later. I looked back at my log book and saw that the instructor had signed off on a bunch of things we hadn't done. If you look at your course materials, including the log book, you will see that everything in the OW dives and much of what is done in the pool is spelled out for you to see.

The student evaluations do include specific questions about specific skills. A friend of mine was investigated by PADI because a student mistakenly indicated that when they did the CESA in open water, he did it without an ascent line.

We went through all of this in wearying detail in a thread a few months ago. I wish people would do just a little research before publishing inaccurate information in self righteous indignation.