Are rebreathers getting safer over time?

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The PPO2 is going to change immediately with depth

Yes, but the sensor reading won't, according to Victor... or will they? We are expecting a 5-second delay, and as Richard pointed out, gas mixing isn't really the main issue here... perhaps the sensor readings will pick up some intermediate ppO2 from somewhere during that 5-second ascent interval? I am still a bit confused, I must say... which is why I think plugging in concrete numbers might really help.

This thread has been amazingly informative, educational and entertaining. At this point, I can't help but to ask the OP to revert back to his original question, "do YOU think rebreathers are getting safer" ???

I'm still not sure what to think... many (most?) people pointed to improvements at least in some areas, I guess the question is whether those improvements make a real difference... :idk:
 
Yes, but the sensor reading won't, according to Victor... or will they? We are expecting a 5-second delay, and as Richard pointed out, gas mixing isn't really the main issue here... perhaps the sensor readings will pick up some intermediate ppO2 from somewhere during that 5-second ascent interval? I am still a bit confused, I must say... which is why I think plugging in concrete numbers might really help.
Sorry, that's not what I meant to imply. The sensors are pretty quick in responding...much faster than 5 seconds. If you've used an O2 analyzer, they're the same cells with the same performance. Not instant, surely, but not that slow. The 5-second delay I was referring to was about the time it'd take for the oxygen injection to have a measurable difference at the O2 sensor.

O2 sensor senses low PO2, the controller triggers the solenoid to fire, oxygen gets added into the loop. That oxygen has to mix, travel through the scrubber, and come out the other side before it hits the sensor. That takes a while. My number is based off of it taking one breath to get the mass of newly-enriched-gas from the solenoid to the sensor and an average respiratory rate of 5 seconds.

I'm still not sure what to think... many (most?) people pointed to improvements at least in some areas, I guess the question is whether those improvements make a real difference... :idk:
I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and well onto a limb. My opinion is that they've made improvements and they're safer. Kinda. Rebreathers are really simply...frustratingly so. Adding real safety improvements is hard to do. What they have done is added better electronics (tuning and tweaking, but largely the same), they've made units harder to misassemble, they've made units more robust to small quantities of water intrusion, they're better defining procedures for cleanings, assemblies, failures, and dive planning, they're standardizing training standards and requirements and shaping those into more useful tools for the rebreather diver. As has been mentioned before, the diver is typically the failure point of the unit....and the rebreather community seems to have been doing a better job in helping the diver make better decisions, both through training and design changes. There was a rebreather fatality recently (past year or so) where someone assembled the unit wrong and never got their breathing to go through the loop or scrubber. Just into one counterlung and then back to their lungs. Divers of that rebreather didn't believe it was possible to misassemble it in that way because of gendered clips and reverse-threads on different hose portions.

I think the question is much the same if you ask "Is OC gear getting safer?" Well, the answer is "kinda." Divers are pushing for better training, but the gear is largely the same. Sure, there have been incremental improvements but nothing revolutionary. The overall package seems to be better.
 
If I could tie this recent discussion into the original topic I would pose these 2 questions:
How long does it take your rebreather to respond to a change in PO2 (Homogeneous gas and cell delay)?
What effect does that delay have on diver safety?

I have never seen a PO2 drop to dangerous levels during as ascent. I have on a descent though.
 
If I could tie this recent discussion into the original topic I would pose these 2 questions:
How long does it take your rebreather to respond to a change in PO2 (Homogeneous gas and cell delay)?
What effect does that delay have on diver safety?

I have never seen a PO2 drop to dangerous levels during as ascent. I have on a descent though.

I think you got that backwards maybe?
 
Now everyone in EMS thinks that end-tidal CO monitoring really is a game changer, ...

A CO2 alarm could warn you about overexertion. I have never needed a computer's help figuring that out. The huffing and puffing has been 100% reliable.

We could use a chest band to count respirations and measure rib cage expansion, and have a similar kind of monitor after training it for a few minutes. Then it could say the same thing. "You overexerted yourself earlier. Alert. You are out of breath now. Alert."

I suppose one unique feature could be to provide an alarm for a diver whose breathing is too shallow, one who may be building up a dangerous load of CO2 and who is somehow insensitive to rising ppCO2.


I remember a class where a instructor talked about trusting a pulse ox, and pointed out you could get 87% if you put it on a cabbage patch kid doll. ...

Yes, this is not an easy problem, but it's not a small one either. If hemoglobin oxygenation starts to fall off quickly in a submerged diver, that's a first class emergency. Having a robust indicator would be a major safety improvement. Disposable oximeters are so cheap now that it's practically criminal to not have this.

Every few months, I hear the same anecdote. "I got lightheaded so I thumbed the dive." Every week or so, I read about a new in-water cardiac event.

Is it possible that some of those MCIs could have been dodged with early warning and an apocalyptic recorded alert? Like, "Immediately stop all activity and breathe deeply until saturation returns to normal levels"?
 
What??? I never mentioned the car's oxygen sensor....you did. I was saying that the control algorithms behind the cruise control are much more responsive than a solenoid controller in an eCCR unit. I wasn't talking about oxygen sensors being used in cruise control at all. You're off base here, buddy....it's not what I was talking about in the slightest.

In a control system, you have measured process variables (inputs), desired setpoints, and control elements. I was comparing process variables of two systems, not oxygen sensors.

This is one of the more absurd thread diversions I have seen on SB.

The time scales, precision requirements and sensor fidelity of the cruise control example are so different to those of a rebreather as to be less than helpful.

The controller (manual or electronic) in a rebreather has to maintain the set point at a reasonable approximation of the target. This is required first to avoid the diver passing out, then as a secondary concern an oxtox and way down the list to optimise deco...

Let's say we are at 30m with a set point of 1.2. We need a FO2 of 30%. With a loop volume of say 5l that is 1.5l of O2 under pressure so 6l surface equivalent. To avoid hypoxia we want to stay over a ppO2 of 0.16, so FO2 of .04 or 0.8l. That leaves 5.2l available to metabolise before a proper problem. About 5 minutes.

Look at an ascent. Say we get from 30m to the surface in 1 minute to make it harder for the controller. At the start there is 6l of o2, 1l will be metabolised over the course of the ascent, some will be lost as it is dumped to maintain buoyancy.

After 20 seconds (at 20m) the lungs will have expanded to by 4/3 so we loose 1/4 of the gas, or 1.5l of O2, and metabolise .33l so we have 6-1.83= 4.17left at 3 bar so 4.17/15 free gas loop volume) or 27ish%. Still conscious.

Next 20 seconds, to 10m. The lungs expand by 3/2 so we loose 1/3 of the remaining 4.17 so we have about 2.8 left, less about .33 metabolised leaves about 2.5l in 10 or 25ish%. Still able to see, hear and press buttons.

Last 20 seconds, now we are down to 1.25-.33 = .92l so ppo2 is .92/5 = 0.184 so still good.

It looks like the controller could wake up once a minute and still maintain a breathable loop. That is why people can be the controller and live.

Interestingly a slower, more normal ascent is more of a danger for hypoxia as a greater proportion will be metabolised. If no O2 is added then passing out is to be expected. On the other hand it is dumped more slowly so the polling interval of the controller does not need to be faster.

The real issue is not controlling the gas in, it is having any idea as to the current loop composition due to old or broken cells.
 
This is one of the more absurd thread diversions I have seen on SB.
I honestly couldn't agree more.

The time scales, precision requirements and sensor fidelity of the cruise control example are so different to those of a rebreather as to be less than helpful.
And that was my point. Someone stated that a rebreather's controller is as simple as "dump gas if low." I stated that it is more involved than that, and that's far too simple....and I made the case for diving an eCCR kinda like an mCCR with a safety net (what I've been told by many eCCR divers) as a method of helping a rebreather be more accurate. Pete said the controller in his cruise control was accurate, and so should the CCR controller. My entire point was that a CCR controller is very limited in its accuracy due to the limitations of its inputs. A human can do a great job of predicting needed changes and "running" it better than a theoretical, 100% purely automatic CCR. Does that make sense?
 
I have never seen a PO2 drop to dangerous levels during as ascent. I have on a descent though.

[edit]Ah, nevermind.[/edit]
 
Sort of surprised to find all you guys and girls over here on scuba board. And it isn't even winter yet. :confused:
 
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