Only one type of gear? Why limit yourself?

[MXGratefulDiver]

All of those things could be provided more efficiently by clubs.

I dunno about that. I'm a big fan of clubs ... currently belong to two active ones, and have been a member of others in the past. Clubs tend to run off the volunteer effort of maybe 5% of their members ... everyone else just joins and participates. Clubs tend to work better, and provide more services, when some of their members offer services that the other members want to buy. We have charter operators, dive shop employees/owners, even some equipment manufacturers in our clubs. Because of the face time they get with divers through club interaction, people tend to give them business ... and it's generally a win-win arrangement. But those services/products are offered outside the auspices of the club itself.

There was a club here in the Seattle area that had a compressor, and offered fills to their members. They ultimately shut it down over liability concerns. Liability insurance is expensive ... and most clubs simply can't afford it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm sorry, had to do this. Edd is a friend and I'm pretty sure we've both taken some advice there?

Oh sure ... I take business there too, whenever I can ... and keep in mind that I live on the other side of the continent, so Edd's shop is hardly local to me.

But I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Smart business owners adapt to changing conditions ... and Edd's a smart business owner. That's why he's got customers on the other side of the continent.

Oh ... and I first learned about Edd on ... you guessed it ... ScubaBoard ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Richard FDC]

Oh sure ... I take business there too, whenever I can ... and keep in mind that I live on the other side of the continent, so Edd's shop is hardly local to me.

But I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Smart business owners adapt to changing conditions ... and Edd's a smart business owner. That's why he's got customers on the other side of the continent.

Oh ... and I first learned about Edd on ... you guessed it ... ScubaBoard ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

My point is that he does a great job and is responsive to his customers. I call it "The inclusive versus the exclusive shop." We are happy to give our business to people like them and we trust them. We go to them for advice and guidance. The industry needs more of that kind of behavior. You were absolutely correct when you made the point about getting advice from shops. It's true that there are many shops where you just go in, get your fills, smile, and leave. A shop like Cave Adventurers is different and we need more shops to be like that.

 

[TMHeimer]

I can think of $1000's of reasons to limit yourself.

No reason for me to read any other posts here.

 

[Steve_C]

Some people like cars. Some people just view them as a tool to get to some place they want to go. I like to dive. I am not interested in Tec or caves. I like to keep my dives simple. I have one BCD. I have one set of regs plus a small pony. I do have several wetsuits due to the range of temperatures that I dive in. If I have a setup that works, why would I want a different one? I don't. If I have a need for something then I will get the needed equipment.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My point is that he does a great job and is responsive to his customers. I call it "The inclusive versus the exclusive shop." We are happy to give our business to people like them and we trust them. We go to them for advice and guidance. The industry needs more of that kind of behavior. You were absolutely correct when you made the point about getting advice from shops. It's true that there are many shops where you just go in, get your fills, smile, and leave. A shop like Cave Adventurers is different and we need more shops to be like that.

Shops are as varied as the people who work in them. Yes, they can be a great place for advice ... but you can say the same about internet forums. The other thing that's common at dive shops is people offering strong opinions disguised as facts ... and again, you can say the same thing about internet forums. The difference is that internet forums aren't usually looking for ways to make a profit from their advice. And all too often, dive shops put short-term profits ahead of the best interests of their clients. I don't even want to tell you how many people I've trained over the years who came to me with thou$and$ in gear that they'd just purchased ... and it was totally inappropriate gear for either their ability level or the type of diving they were going to be using it for. That's way too common in our industry. Same goes for training ... dive shops have an inherent conflict of interest when it comes to most recreational levels of training. Quality costs money, and people are mostly interested in getting the card and have no idea whether the training they're getting is good or bad (until later, when they've learned a few things outside the classroom). Many dive shops stick strictly to the minimum requirements, short hours in the pool, and quick checkout dives, because in order to attract the students they have to offer the class at a low price ... and they have to keep costs down.

That's why I went independent ... I decided I'd rather train fewer students, charge them more, and provide them a better service. It's not as endemic in cave country as it is elsewhere ... but you won't find a cave class being offered for $129 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

It would be the end of SCUBA as we know it....in our area

Fixed that for you.... as outside your country (it's a big world).... the vast majority of divers use resort based diving, often with minimal retail.... and LDS (the US model) is generally irrelevant for fills etc....

 

[redacted]

I dunno about that. I'm a big fan of clubs ... currently belong to two active ones, and have been a member of others in the past. Clubs tend to run off the volunteer effort of maybe 5% of their members ... everyone else just joins and participates. Clubs tend to work better, and provide more services, when some of their members offer services that the other members want to buy. We have charter operators, dive shop employees/owners, even some equipment manufacturers in our clubs. Because of the face time they get with divers through club interaction, people tend to give them business ... and it's generally a win-win arrangement. But those services/products are offered outside the auspices of the club itself.

There was a club here in the Seattle area that had a compressor, and offered fills to their members. They ultimately shut it down over liability concerns. Liability insurance is expensive ... and most clubs simply can't afford it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The larger successful shops and mfgrs will not let scuba disappear. Lol

 

[Patoux01]

The consensus is that [...] tool just like [...] jacket style BCDs.

Please point me to a situation where those are supposed to be appropriate...

 

[JohnnyC]

I'm not sure what "game" this is? Or why you think this is a "game" in the first place. I think you're trying to read waaaaaay more into my post than is actually there. It seems that you are personally affronted that I called out out for giving bad advice. That's your deal, not mine, and I absolutely would say anything I have said here to your face. I don't understand, are you trying to be some internet tough guy and implying that I wouldn't say the same for fear of reprisal? Is that some thinly veiled threat? You're clearly offended, but that's not my problem, that's yours.

I also never said anything about you diving sidemount or a lack of diving sidemount. I think you've got a reading comprehension problem. I said I don't dive it as an effort to point out that someone who doesn't worship at the church of sidemount is still capable of pointing out your patently false claims trying to denigrate the configuration.

Here's a thought, Andy Davis up there in post 27 does EXACTLY the thing you said sidemount wasn't good for, wreck diving with penetration. How about you tell him how he's using the wrong system. Tell him that he's doing a disservice to his students. Tell him how he's wrong and that he's putting himself in a bad situation. Tell him how his sidemount tanks aren't going to let him fit through a narrow passage. (PS, he's got video coming out of a wreck where no set of twins would think about going) Clearly you're the expert, relegating sidemount to low passage cave diving only. You should probably save him before he turns others astray!!!!

About the only thing in your article that was accurate is "use the right tool for the job." Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is that your opinion for what the right tool is, is dead wrong. People all over the world are proving that day in and day out. Guys with more dives than you'll ever have are proving it day in and day out. Guys putting thousands of feet of line in open caves are proving that your rigid assertions are ********.

If you want to hit a nail, there are all sorts of hammers that do equally well. Don't try and tell someone that they're using the wrong one when they've got the fence already built. And don't try and tell them they need to buy a different hammer just so your buddy at the hardware store can sell him one.

It's not my fault you're wrong. It's not my fault that you're offended that someone has called you on it. It's not my fault that you think it's more important to buy a bunch of gear than it is to use what works. It's not my fault that people are proving you wrong every day by diving gear configurations that get your panties in a twist. I'm no sidemount nut hugger, but dude, you're just so flat out wrong with your assumptions that it's crazy.

You want excess crap hanging around? Great, have at it, fill your garage with everything you can, but don't tell people that they need to buy excess gear to support their dive shop. That's why we see people on this forum asking about this great gear package their dive shop wants to sell them and getting shot down. That's why people sell entire sets of gear because some dive shop gave them the great advice that they needed all of this stuff. That's why people ditch jackets for plates and wonder why nobody ever told them about it before. It's because of "advice" like yours that says you need a new screwdriver for every screw and you can't use and 8lb sledge you have to buy a 10lb sledge and if you don't you're not properly equipped.

Frankly I'm surprised that you haven't called anyone a stroke yet for using sidemount on a recreational dive.