How often does this happen at Ginnie?

[kensuf]

Regulations set by who? In what country? Under what authority? Who do you show the certification to? Is there a guard at each and every cave entrance in the world waiting to see your card and let you in?

Where does personal responsibility come in?

In the states, nowhere. We need some tort reform.

 

[lv2dive]

At first blush I thought I was going to have agree to disagree with you, but on second glance, I interpreted what you said as meaning;

We don't need any more laws, we need tort reform so entities including people can't get bankrupted from frivolous lawsuits?

If so I am squarely in your camp. More personal responsibility, no need to get government involved in our sport/addiction.

In the states, nowhere. We need some tort reform.

 

[kensuf]

At first blush I thought I was going to have agree to disagree with you, but on second glance, I interpreted what you said as meaning;

We don't need any more laws, we need tort reform so entities including people can't get bankrupted from frivolous lawsuits?

If so I am squarely in your camp. More personal responsibility, no need to get government involved in our sport/addiction.

You got it right. Some countries have the understanding of the concept of "death by misadventure." If we had that here, it would have probably saved the NSS-CDS $73k.

 

[NAM001]

Its all personal responsibility at Ginnie. You check in and based on your cert card, you are told the rules regarding such things as lights and areas where no entering allowed. Its up to each one comply. To be honest ginnie and such sites are the places that I see the pre dive waiver has the most practical use. Even at Ginnie I have had my valve rolled off and gone OOA on the primary reg. Diving H valves with a single tank makes it a simple issue to deal with. Swap regs and head out. So even cavers as easy as they look requires thought and training to do safely.

 

[kensuf]

Florida has a nasty habit of allowing baseless lawsuits drag on. You may be legally in the right, but unless you're insured heavily, you will go broke proving that you're right.

Two recent cases were settled in favor of the defendant.

One involved two guys that were not cave trained (but one had passed cavern, the other failed it, so they knew the risks) that got access to a cave under false pretenses and they died. The landowner shelled out $73k.

The other involved a guy that died on a ccr, he was on pain killers while diving and not trained for the unit. Defense costs were almost $600k.

I feel sorry for the families of the deceased, but seeking a solution to "**** happens and Johnny made a bad mistake" in a court costs us all.

 

[boulderjohn]

Florida has a nasty habit of allowing baseless lawsuits drag on. You may be legally in the right, but unless you're insured heavily, you will go broke proving that you're right.

Two recent cases were settled in favor of the defendant.

One involved two guys that were not cave trained (but one had passed cavern, the other failed it, so they knew the risks) that got access to a cave under false pretenses and they died. The landowner shelled out $73k.

The other involved a guy that died on a ccr, he was on pain killers while diving and not trained for the unit. Defense costs were almost $600k.

I feel sorry for the families of the deceased, but seeking a solution to "**** happens and Johnny made a bad mistake" in a court costs us all.

I would love to see an objective third party analysis of both cases by a knowledgeable attorney. I simply cannot see how either case could have turned out they way it did. As you say, the defense won each case but was slammed with incredible fees to get to that point. On the basis of what I know from reading discussions about these cases, a competent attorney should have gotten both cases tossed easily and early, so the fact that they were not tossed easily and early makes me think there must have been something going on that I don't know about.

 

[tstormdiver]

As a diver, who went into such an environment untrained & nearly became a fatality statistic, I would very highly recommend proper training before one engages in such activities. I was foolish in my first cave dive. Yet,... as the others have pointed out, it boils down to personal responsibility. There was no one to try stop me & no one did. I knew better, yet the curiosity got the better of me,... Not that it is any excuse. After getting a very good scare (almost ran out of gas) & well- deserved butt chewing from my instructor (also a cave instructor), I was made to realize just how foolish I was. When I went through my cave training, I learned, hands on, why it was so foolish. The "You don't know what you don't know" in real life. There is a fine line between regulation, personal responsibility & land owner liability. Every time there is a fatality in a cave system, it draws the noose tighter, of the land owner not allowing cave diving. That is what the main cave diving related groups/ organizations combat. Education is the key. Educate the divers, educate the land owners & educate the public, in general. A vast number of cave fatalities are untrained divers. Of the trained divers, next, are the fatalities in which the basic rules & or dive protocols all cave divers are taught are ignored or not properly utilized (diver error). Medical & natural caused fatalities are very rare, but does happen from time to time. It is all too easy to dismiss the risks of going into an overhead environment for the excitement or the adventure. Once again, as one who almost did not make it out,.... Think before you enter.

 

[The Chairman]

The last time I was in the ballroom, I dove with lights out on a rebreather and played hide 'n seek. It was fun.

 

[SCRedWolf]

The last time I was in the ballroom, I dove with lights out on a rebreather and played hide 'n seek. It was fun.

For Halloween and April Fool's do you hang out there just to scare the crap out of other divers?

 

[divad]

delete