Efficiency evidence: frog vs flutter?

[ronscuba]

If I need to get somewhere fast or move against current I flutter kick. If I need to avoid silt up I frog kick. Outside of these situations I do whatever.

 

[ReefHound]

The more rest in between human power consumption (strokes), the greater efficiency from aerobic performance and the longer it takes to get to the point of inefficient anaerobic metabolism.

By that reasoning it would seem the highest efficiency would be achieved by alternating kicking styles between frog and flutter in order to use different muscle sets and spread the load around. I don't think there's any question that it takes greater absolute energy to repeatedly accelerate a mass to a given velocity rather than maintain that velocity, it's a question of what energy levels can be efficiently produced by what biological processes.

 

[Bob DBF]

wondering if when the flutter kick is being referenced it is really the scissor kick that is being discussed. I use a flutter kick on a swim-thru, however, if it is done incorrectly it can silt up the water.

A flutter kick and scissor kick are two different styles. The scissor kick is only used with the side sidestroke, it has a power and glide portion, similar to the frog kick.

I tried to get a quick diagram to post but came up short, I didn't find a simple diagram, may be someone else can coax Google better than I.


Bob

 

[RayfromTX]

I am a big fan of the frog kick but I don't buy into this "glide" saving energy, if anything it is a net negative. Changing inertia and regaining speed is more expensive than maintaining it. Think of it this way, do you get your best fuel economy on the freeway by maintaining a constant 70mph or do you accelerate to 70, coast aka "glide" down to 50, accelerate back to 70, coast to 50, repeat over and over?

As a former hypermiler I can confirm that you get your best mileage with the pulse and glide strategy. That isn't proof that the same holds true with the frog kick but I would put money on it if I had to bet one way or the other with no more to go on than my gut. That's all I have to go on, no data, not test results. In my car, I have the data.

ETA, the reason pulse and glide works in a car is because you are able to utilize the most thermally efficient power band of the engine for most of the fuel use. This is not going to be a rapid acceleration but rather the most efficient rate of acceleration as shown by testing and experience. In a Prius my friends managed well over 100 mpg for 24 hours. I was unable to join them for the attempt due to prior commitments.

 

[MargaritaMike]

A flutter kick and scissor kick are two different styles. The scissor kick is only used with the side sidestroke, it has a power and glide portion, similar to the frog kick.

I tried to get a quick diagram to post but came up short, I didn't find a simple diagram, may be someone else can coax Google better than I.


Bob

And once again, I have been proven wrong. I guess I should go back to one of my standby adages: It's better to let people think you're stupid, than to open your mouth and dispel all doubt.
- M²

 

[RayfromTX]

I often fall into the scissor kick when I am frog kicking. I was shown on video. Years and years of English Crawl created a muscle memory that haunts me. The rotation of one ankle is about all I see as a difference. Have I also opened my mouth and dispelled all doubt about my brand of stoopid?

 

[CT-Rich]

I think people worry too much about their SAC. It like worrying about how much your bicycle weighs (the easiest way to shed five pounds from a bike is for you to eat less snack food and beer and use the bike every day). The type of kick is a tool to get around, which is best is application dependent. A good SAC is more dependent on choosing the right kick for the job.

I use Flutter kicks when I need to get somewhere in a hurry. It burns gas faster, but on a long traverse, either on the surface, underwater or fighting a current. It provides sustained power over a distance. Frog kick is great for enclosed spaces, seeing the sights, avoiding silting (if you are flutter kicking along the bottom, you are probably out of trim and rototilling, IMHO). It is slower, but I think with the kick glide -kick much more energy efficient. Dolphin kick is a great power stroke because you are using a completely different muscle group than the other two kicks, at least for me, it is not sustainable for very long distances. I like it for short sprints.

 

[CT-Rich]

The two primary factors affecting kick and SAC are Aerobic vs anaerobic respiration and the size of the muscle groups involved. Heavy muscles use will require more O2 and ultimately lead to loss of efficiency as cells start to burn glucose anaerobically. The larger the muscle group involved the more energy they will need. ultimately, going back to my bicycle analogy, good conditioning will have a big impact.

 

[northernone]

I think people worry too much about their SAC. It like worrying about how much your bicycle weighs (the easiest way to shed five pounds from a bike is for you to eat less snack food and beer and use the bike every day). The type of kick is a tool to get around, which is best is application dependent. A good SAC is more dependent on choosing the right kick for the job.

I use Flutter kicks when I need to get somewhere in a hurry. It burns gas faster, but on a long traverse, either on the surface, underwater or fighting a current. It provides sustained power over a distance. Frog kick is great for enclosed spaces, seeing the sights, avoiding silting (if you are flutter kicking along the bottom, you are probably out of trim and rototilling, IMHO). It is slower, but I think with the kick glide -kick much more energy efficient. Dolphin kick is a great power stroke because you are using a completely different muscle group than the other two kicks, at least for me, it is not sustainable for very long distances. I like it for short sprints.

I agree, there are far more significant factors to underwater efficiency than stroke. Posting in the advanced forum in hoping this can be a fine tuning information thread. Nice reminder of the dolphin kick, it's enjoyable when my spine can take it. I'd love a proper mono fin (built bad ones as a teen). They seem to have great potential.

I think I'm with you on kicks simply being the best tool for the job. Curious the metabolic cost that comes with them. If I'm crossing a river underwater to get to a spawning area on the other side, I can exhaust myself picking the wrong stroke or speed of swimming.


This doesn't deserve it's own thread but... Here is a screenshot from my friend's video of me on my last dive... Anyone hazard a guess what sort of fin kick I'm using... Perhaps it was part of a turn? I had just been heading across the screen to the left and that's where I'd expect myself to use a helicopter turn... Sure isn't a helicopter turn...

Still curious if there's been any stroke efficiency studies done recently. In swimming it's finely tuned and well documented... But diving isn't a competitive sport and we sure aren't in the Olympics.

Here's another thought... Any of us free dive using the frog kick? I'll cruise along the bottom using it, but not if I'm actually trying to get somewhere.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[dmaziuk]

I'm certainly no expert in biomechanics, but for me, I actually do a full glide. After my power stroke, I actually just relax my legs for a moment and don't move them at all as I'm moving forward, once I begin to come to a stop, I do another power stroke.

:shrug: I do a single dolphin kick and glide, but that's only after I'm done photographing whatever it was and need to catch up with the rest of the group. If you want to slowly glide next to the wall looking for critters, any kind of power kick is usually too much kick.