DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[ginti]

@Wibble , I appreciate your curiosity a lot. Exchange of ideas and perspectives with other curious people is the best way to expand our own horizons and boundaries.

However, I continue seeing that you insist in saying what is "DiR compliant", what GUE does or does not, what GUE divers do or do not, etc.

It's a pity, because people that do not know this world will make a wrong idea of it, while people who understand this world may think that you are just spreading misinformation.

I'd like to suggest you again to ask information instead of making statements, but I am not very confident that you will change your way to argue and discuss. Still, I hope you will.

P.S. side mount rebreathers, no mount diving and many others are some of the things that GUE divers (at ANY level) do despite there isn't any formal training with GUE, UTD, ISE and similars. And I can continue this very long list.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Does this mean that sidemount is now mainstream and DIR compliant?

I know a few guys with a GUE Cave Sidemount card. They only go SM if they can't push through it in BM.

 

[Wibble]

@Wibble , I appreciate your curiosity a lot. Exchange of ideas and perspectives with other curious people is the best way to expand our own horizons and boundaries.

However, I continue seeing that you insist in saying what is "DiR compliant", what GUE does or does not, what GUE divers do or do not, etc.

It's a pity, because people that do not know this world will make a wrong idea of it, while people who understand this world may think that you are just spreading misinformation.

I'd like to suggest you again to ask information instead of making statements, but I am not very confident that you will change your way to argue and discuss. Still, I hope you will.

P.S. side mount rebreathers, no mount diving and many others are some of the things that GUE divers (at ANY level) do despite there isn't any formal training with GUE, UTD, ISE and similars. And I can continue this very long list.

The challenge always seems to be that any mention of non-compliant configurations seem to result in a barrage of comments such as it’s not DIR, that’s not the system, you know nothing as you’re not trained, etc. so I’ve tried hard to keep on topic and within DIR.

Evolution is the challenge. Thirty-odd years ago diving was unrecognisable from today. Everything has changed except the human within the kit. Technology, algorithms, theory, training, standards, safety…. everything.

DIR has been extremely influential in de-risking technical diving. It pervades most technical training from most agencies. GUE's courses follow the DIR concepts more closely than most agencies.

As technology and circumstances change, both DIR and GUE need to adapt, as is demonstrated by sidemount and rebreathers. The challenge is that the modified JJ response to "DIRify" a standard rebreather is taking a specialised rebreather configuration — specifically for a small number of cave divers — and attempting to push that as a general purpose rebreather against the perceived wisdom of virtually all other rebreathers, including the JJ.

Attempts to get balanced and honest answers to why one should dive with the complex and heavy GUE JJ configuration generally results in defensive replies, if not ad-hominem attacks.

As someone who’s moved from DIR(ish) backmount to a standard rebreather, I utterly fail to see why I’d be struggling with understanding that my valves are inverted and lean left (diluent & suit inflate) rich right (oxygen). Maybe it’s overtraining that makes a competent backmount doubles diver incapable of adapting to CCR? Same with donating, it’s just a modified bailout — grab the LH bailout reg and stuff it into the OOG recipient's mouth. Simples.

Even the tone of the original post has a certain odour to it implying superiority of DIR/GUE. For those in the club, great. For the orders of magnitude of divers outside of GUE it makes no difference other than curiosity.

 

[ginti]

The challenge always seems to be that any mention of non-compliant configurations seem to result in a barrage of comments such as it’s not DIR, that’s not the system, you know nothing as you’re not trained, etc. so I’ve tried hard to keep on topic and within DIR.

There is no challenge, Wibble. If you know something for sure, speak loud. If you don't know, ask. It's that easy

The challenge is that the modified JJ response to "DIRify" a standard rebreather is taking a specialised rebreather configuration — specifically for a small number of cave divers — and attempting to push that as a general purpose rebreather against the perceived wisdom of virtually all other rebreathers, including the JJ.

First, no one ever asked you to use the GUE JJ. And no one will ever do. There are some reasons why GUE divers like this configuration. If you don't like these reasons, just dive something else.

Second, and again, GUE divers often dive other rebreathers, in other configurations.

Attempts to get balanced and honest answers to why one should dive with the complex and heavy GUE JJ configuration generally results in defensive replies, if not ad-hominem attacks.

This isn't fair.

Now, disclaimer: I do not dive rebreather, which is why I never answer questions about rebreather. Here I will only mention the answers I saw on the forum (so nothing related to my own experience)

The only thing about rebreathers that GUE folks seem to reject 100% is team bailout, and they aren't the only ones. Besides that, the guys here only point out the advantages and the disadvantages of that configuration; obviously, they believe that advantages are more than disadvantages, otherwise, they wouldn't dive those configurations.

Now I challenge you: quote a post where a GUE diver with significant rebreather experience said that configurations other than GUE are bad, dangerous or you shouldn't dive them (again, with the exception of team bailout). Do it and I will stop right now

As someone who’s moved from DIR(ish) backmount to a standard rebreather, I utterly fail to see why I’d be struggling with understanding that my valves are inverted and lean left (diluent & suit inflate) rich right (oxygen). Maybe it’s overtraining that makes a competent backmount doubles diver incapable of adapting to CCR? Same with donating, it’s just a modified bailout — grab the LH bailout reg and stuff it into the OOG recipient's mouth. Simples.

It looks like you are implying that your configuration is the best, not the other way around. Why should GUE divers who like their configuration, which proved very safe, switch to your configuration?

Even the tone of the original post has a certain odour to it implying superiority of DIR/GUE.

Why? You often smell this odour (at least in your last post), but in the end, you are asking "Maybe it’s overtraining that makes a competent back-mount doubles diver incapable of adapting to CCR?", while no GUE diver asked you to switch to their configuration.

EDIT: I said:

I'd like to suggest you again to ask information instead of making statements, but I am not very confident that you will change your way to argue and discuss. Still, I hope you will.

Unfortunately, I was right, you aren't changing your attitude. It's just a pity.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Sure would be nice if you guys took the rebreather discussion to another thread. The topic of this thread interested me, but I know nothing of rebreathers.

 

[mariosx]

Maybe it’s overtraining that makes a competent backmount doubles diver incapable of adapting to CCR?

Even if that's the case, what is your conclusion exactly?
GUE has to stop supporting capable backmount divers that are "unable" to switch to your definition of CCR, and adapting your style of diving that doesn't fit the style of almost any GUE diver?

I am not sure, at this point, what's the purpose of your posts.

Once more, every GUE diver accepts the GUE standars, and not at gun point. Every member of GUE (by definition) disagrees with your perspective, but I guess GUE has to prioritize your ideas over the overwhelming desires and needs of all its members.

 

[PfcAJ]

Streamlining is important for efficiency and control.

You imply that you only ever dive in huge no-restriction caves. Obviously only applicable to a very limited number of sites and not appropriate for any smaller caves nor wreck diving.

The point of a bailout rebreather is it’s managed during the dive in the same way as your bottles. Probably sidemounted it would be streamlined and available. You would periodically switch to it during a dive, especially depth changes, to ensure it’s available. The marginal cost of using it during a dive is low.

As for the ad-hominem, I do dive wrecks in that range (have a great dive lined up to that depth today — the first warship ever sunk by a submarine launched torpedo) and don’t dive a BOB. My intention, should I progress to deeper wrecks with their limited time and long decompression obligations, would be to evaluate a BOB with an open mind especially using the right tool for the job in hand.

Obviously the tool for the job in your very specific circumstances is not appropriate for many other people's circumstances.

How many deep shipwrecks do you dive?

I dive plenty of caves with restrictions. It’s no big deal. At all. I’ll post a link to ya boi going through the same restriction as traditionally-configured CCR dudes and taking the exact same amount of time to slide through. 2:11 for the interested viewer-
Applicable to wreck diving, too. 50s on the side is the same size as a set of 104s. Again, nbd.

Switch to it every depth change? Yeah right.

I’m no stranger to deep wrecks, especially stuff in the Gulf Stream 30+ mi offshore with ripping currents. 50s for bailout backmounted, two 40s for deco, and go. When we did the Amberjack project a few years ago that thing was 350’+ to the bottom. Big sinkhole far offshore. Mostly an open water dive. Easy peasy.

Again, this isn’t some radical new config. We’ve been doin this for 20 years and it works. See: Mars, Atlanta, Egaldi, Ghost Fishing, MCEP, WKPP, GUE’s Guanxi project, EKPP, Portofino Divers, GUE Ontario, AKEP, and others I’m sure I missed.

We be doin this. A lot.

 

[Gone for diving]

Wait... dir now allows computers?

 

[PfcAJ]

Wait... dir now allows computers?

Tables are primary. Computers are fine so long as you don’t come to rely on them. Lots of us have been running shearwaters for quite some time now.

 

[crofrog]

Tables are primary. Computers are fine so long as you don’t come to rely on them. Lots of us have been running shearwaters for quite some time now.

As is clearly covered in fundamentals