Diving incident at Eagles Nest Sink

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I said I wasn't going to post again, but this popped up in my email feed.

Chris, so easily you forget this comment on Facebook:
I didn't forget it..in fact I stand by it. That was in response to the demand that nobody talk about this. I also posted it in a private fb group as a vent, because I am completely tired of the shut up and wait for a report that never comes. In fact you in response to my post shared some of the same concerns.

Again, that was my response to the orgs demands, NOT a response to the recovery divers. There is a difference.

If there had been a recent pattern of the "reports" that we are promised with the demands to shut up it would be much more likely that we would have trust a report would materialize and less of the speculation that occurs
 
I don't think people are saying that,but an understanding and appreciation of what they do, as well as the stress they bear is important. Everyone wants that immediate report of what happened? Often not it isn't forth coming because information must be disseminated. Recovery divers on site at odd hours, dealing with grieving family close by, and the law enforcement needs. Then you have to complete a report which goes to law enforcement,thus reliving everything, plus well meaning friends that call prying for information. They are truly in the middle with forums asking for more information,but they really can't talk about it publically since it is technically a crime scene until deemed otherwise by law enforcement. The team that worked this last accident have operated professionally and done an outstanding task, and they probably want some time to breathe. The arm chair quarterbacking will continue and the what-if scenarios will continue while people engage in rationalization to make themselves feel better.
Again, it is NOT about demanding the recovery divers immediately get on social media and share all, it's about the narrative from the agencies(not the recovery divers per say)that there will be a accident analysis provided..as always promised with a demand for silence..when the promised report never sees the light if day.

The trust is broken, and this type of stuff is what occurs.
 
OK folks, we have info. The recovery divers are now trying to heal. Do you think we could find it within ourselves to give them some peace for a bit? They are no doubt feeling a bit understandably raw. Perhaps we could just back off on every aspect of this thread for awhile? Perhaps some compassion? There'll be time to discuss misunderstandings in a few days when everyone is more rested.
 
Again, that was my response to the orgs demands, NOT a response to the recovery divers. There is a difference.

What's the difference between those two, again?

The "org" is made of people, and those people happen to be the recovery divers.
 
Can anyone lay out some scenarios here to what happened? I'm still trying to understand if this was an issue passing a restriction or did the diver without his gear pass away and the other diver was attempting to bring him out and removed his gear? There's so many unanswered questions from what we know.

I'm not expecting an immediate answer, I'd just like to refocus our attention on to what happened instead of casting blame on the after effect. I think a lot of you are probably friends, I don't think anyone wants to see more relationships end more than what was lost that day.
 
I too am with Chris on this one. The two divers have died. That is a fact that cannot be changed. The families have my deepest sympathy and condolences. The friends of the deceased also have my sympathy. To the recovery teams, you have my greatest respect and a heartfelt thank you for the work you did, have done and will do in the future.

Sadly, these divers are dead. We now must also look to the living. When an accident occurs in aviation, there are reports and investigations. These are readily available and used in by the aviation community to make it a safer endeavor. There is a lot of discussion on why the accident happened long before the reports are out. The FAA has even issued directives without complete reports to facilitate safety. Diving has no such thing. The ICURR has some recovery reports but little information. In the Technical side of diving, information is critical. Our methodologies, training and skills revolve around lessons learned from previous experiences, incidents, accidents and deaths. With no formal method of releasing investigation reports into diving accidents, we are left only with supposition and internet 'expert' opinion. To move safety forward in our sport, we must not shy from deep discussions on accidents such as this one. We must not protect the ‘memory’ of the dead to the detriment of those living that may benefit from information gleaned from an accident. A goal of an investigation into any accident is to prevent or reduce further accidents by promulgating information learned. We currently rely on information from private industries and organizations such as DAN or ICURR for what little information we will get. Typically, these Internet forums are our best source of information both valid and invalid.

Is there an immediate desire for information - YES. Is this desire disrespectful of those that died - NO. Divers want to understand what happened and where things went wrong. It is human nature. I bet that few of those that are saying it is disrespectful turn their heads when passing an accident on the highway! We all want to learn and potentially benefit by way of safety. The ICURR report that was put out by PfcAj (as reported by the recovery diver) was very detailed and probably will be the bulk of the information we will ever receive. As an example, for me, I am looking at the JJ CCRs. This incident is of concern because they were used. I have a specific concern with the JJ and if this was caused by or aggravated by it, it would change my decision in purchasing it. This is how an incident like this can change our decisions and actions. I think many of us here understand that there is a difference between a preliminary report and a final report for an investigation. The ICURR report that was put out will alleviate a lot of immediate potential issues and will address most questions initially. Discussions on what went right or wrong may very well be beneficial to the Technical diving community regardless of the final report. All discussions should respect the divers, recovery divers and all others involved.

Just before I started Technical diving, I had discussions with my wife and daughter about the serious potential to die while diving. I waited until I had enough financial resources available that they would not suffer a financial devastation by my loss. I also have been very open about the risks as I have progressed. Because of this, my family has discussed what to do with the Internet forums if I did die. Simply put, Information is key. Like Chris, I want 50 pages of bluntly discussed information. If I was an idiot, please lay it all out. If I did something stupid, please discuss it to ad nauseam. If I did things right, point it out. Get as much information out of my death as possible. Most of all, learn from my mistake. Do not hold back because I died, rather prevent others from making the same mistakes that cost me my life. That will honor me more than a bunch of people, many of whom did not really even know me, saying how sorry they are for my death.

I wish to thank the recovery teams involved: Jon, Charlie, AJ, Ted and anyone else involved for doing a very hard job. The diving community lost two divers, Chris and Patrick. I did not know either of them but I can relate to them. Their families have by deepest sympathy. I also hope that I and others learn from them and their accident.
 
For everyone shouting about how no one is paying attention to cave accidents:
http://www.dhmjournal.com/files/dhmvol46no3_contents_S.pdf

Look at the article on page 150. Email the journal editor if you are interested.

And again I repeat: DAN compiles a lot of information, they have a huge, searchable database on every accident which is reported to them. I urge everyone to contribute to said database if you ever are witness or party to an accident or incident.
Scuba Diving Accident Reports, Case Summaries, Incidents, Prevention | DAN

IUCRR has a website. There are accident reports there, too.
Incident Reports - IUCRR

If you are screaming about the details of this particular accident without having read ALL of that stuff, rolled it over in your head, parsed it out, digested it, and tried to integrate it, frankly, you are just being a rubbernecker in my opinion. There is plenty of information that has been properly compiled, analyzed, and presented completely in such a way that the accident can be learned from. If you think that knowing about THIS incident is the single most pressing issue for every diver to safely survive you're being ridiculous. I guarantee there's something more interesting you didn't already know from an earlier incident.

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone said something along the lines of, "People aren't going to go to the DAN site" and do what I suggest above. Well... screw them. They're lazy. Why should it be the responsibility of people who have already tapped deep into energy and emotional reserves to spoon-feed them details of something that is still fresh and raw and painful in their own minds?

You want to learn about dive accidents... educate yourself. Properly working for it will help you avoid them better, too.
 
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I too am with Chris on this one. The two divers have died. That is a fact that cannot be changed. The families have my deepest sympathy and condolences. The friends of the deceased also have my sympathy. To the recovery teams, you have my greatest respect and a heartfelt thank you for the work you did, have done and will do in the future.

Sadly, these divers are dead. We now must also look to the living. When an accident occurs in aviation, there are reports and investigations. These are readily available and used in by the aviation community to make it a safer endeavor. There is a lot of discussion on why the accident happened long before the reports are out. The FAA has even issued directives without complete reports to facilitate safety. Diving has no such thing. The ICURR has some recovery reports but little information. In the Technical side of diving, information is critical. Our methodologies, training and skills revolve around lessons learned from previous experiences, incidents, accidents and deaths. With no formal method of releasing investigation reports into diving accidents, we are left only with supposition and internet 'expert' opinion. To move safety forward in our sport, we must not shy from deep discussions on accidents such as this one. We must not protect the ‘memory’ of the dead to the detriment of those living that may benefit from information gleaned from an accident. A goal of an investigation into any accident is to prevent or reduce further accidents by promulgating information learned. We currently rely on information from private industries and organizations such as DAN or ICURR for what little information we will get. Typically, these Internet forums are our best source of information both valid and invalid.

Is there an immediate desire for information - YES. Is this desire disrespectful of those that died - NO. Divers want to understand what happened and where things went wrong. It is human nature. I bet that few of those that are saying it is disrespectful turn their heads when passing an accident on the highway! We all want to learn and potentially benefit by way of safety. The ICURR report that was put out by PfcAj (as reported by the recovery diver) was very detailed and probably will be the bulk of the information we will ever receive. As an example, for me, I am looking at the JJ CCRs. This incident is of concern because they were used. I have a specific concern with the JJ and if this was caused by or aggravated by it, it would change my decision in purchasing it. This is how an incident like this can change our decisions and actions. I think many of us here understand that there is a difference between a preliminary report and a final report for an investigation. The ICURR report that was put out will alleviate a lot of immediate potential issues and will address most questions initially. Discussions on what went right or wrong may very well be beneficial to the Technical diving community regardless of the final report. All discussions should respect the divers, recovery divers and all others involved.

Just before I started Technical diving, I had discussions with my wife and daughter about the serious potential to die while diving. I waited until I had enough financial resources available that they would not suffer a financial devastation by my loss. I also have been very open about the risks as I have progressed. Because of this, my family has discussed what to do with the Internet forums if I did die. Simply put, Information is key. Like Chris, I want 50 pages of bluntly discussed information. If I was an idiot, please lay it all out. If I did something stupid, please discuss it to ad nauseam. If I did things right, point it out. Get as much information out of my death as possible. Most of all, learn from my mistake. Do not hold back because I died, rather prevent others from making the same mistakes that cost me my life. That will honor me more than a bunch of people, many of whom did not really even know me, saying how sorry they are for my death.

I wish to thank the recovery teams involved: Jon, Charlie, AJ, Ted and anyone else involved for doing a very hard job. The diving community lost two divers, Chris and Patrick. I did not know either of them but I can relate to them. Their families have by deepest sympathy. I also hope that I and others learn from them and their accident.
I think you're misinformed about the role of the iucrr.

In my experience over the past 10 years or so of reading about cave incidents the iucrr doesn't (and hasn't with very few exceptions) report on anything other than what's objectively observable. Making sense of what's observed is not something the iucrr does.
 
I think you're misinformed about the role of the iucrr.

In my experience over the past 10 years or so of reading about cave incidents the iucrr doesn't (and hasn't with very few exceptions) report on anything other than what's objectively observable. Making sense of what's observed is not something the iucrr does.

Actually that was part of what I am talking about. Those reports often glean some information. I understand the role of the IUCRR and have gone through all of the public reports periodically. The reports do offer a great deal of information. I also understand that they are not an accident report but rather an 'as is' report.


And PfcAj - I really do thank you for the work you did and have done and will do in the future with sad events like this.
 

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