40m without deep specialty?

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

I am in the same position i.e a DM without doing the Deep Speciality. My insurance states that I am insured to dive as long as I do not exceed the depth that I am certified to dive to. I have been told by many people that this is 40m but can not find anything that confirms this officially. Do I need to do the Deep Speciality to be able to go to 40m and still be covered by my insurance or am I already covered to 40m?

Now that is a great question! I would imagine that the VAST majority of instructors and DMs are in the same position as you and I. I don't know anyone who has taken the PADI Deep speciality. It didn't even exist for a long time.

Afraid I don't know the answer but would be interested to hear anyone with a definitive answer. I guess you would have to phone up your insurance provider and ask them.

Anyone know how DAN does this?

 

[elan]

when I spoke to my instructor once she told me when she was doing her MSDT in PADI system to be recognized as having some specialty she had to either take the specialty or prove that she had 25+ dives in that specialty, that is for wrecks she said she just presented her logs. Deep might work the same way ?

 

[Splash-X]

when I spoke to my instructor once she told me when she was doing her MSDT in PADI system to be recognized as having some specialty she had to either take the specialty or prove that she had 25+ dives in that specialty, that is for wrecks she said she just presented her logs. Deep might work the same way ?

If the quest is "Would PADI issue me a Deep specialty without taking the class" I would say that your answer may be correct.

Since the question is about insurance:

I am in the same position i.e a DM without doing the Deep Speciality. My insurance states that I am insured to dive as long as I do not exceed the depth that I am certified to dive to. I have been told by many people that this is 40m but can not find anything that confirms this officially. Do I need to do the Deep Speciality to be able to go to 40m and still be covered by my insurance or am I already covered to 40m?

I would say that if you don't have some proof to show that you are already deep certified the insurance will consider your "25+ dives of experience" as careless behavior and you're risking cancellation of your policy or denial of coverage should anything happen.

The insurance is going to cover you so long as you are diving within the limits of the policy. If the policy clearly states that you can not exceed the depth limits of your highest level of certification then the answer is clear, what ever your highest depth rated certification is, that is your limit.

The question should be what is YOUR highest level of certification regarding "depth".

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Any PADI Instructor who takes the MSDT Prep course after the IE theoretically gets trained to teach at least 5 Specialties by a CD, usually including Deep (must show 10 logged dives in each specialty). That is not saying that training includes a dive to 40m. I did 9 dives with my CD; Deep(2), Naturalist(2), Navigation(2), Night (1), Wreck(2), every dive on Nitrox. The 2 Deep dives were only 92' and 80', but one of the Wreck dives was 109'. We spent at least 16 classroom hours covering the material in the Specialty Course Manuals and the Specialty Instructor Manuals.

Due to the MSDT Prep Course, I was certified to teach those 5 Specialties before recording 25 certs. Without the MSDT Prep Course the requirements for Specialty Instructor ratings are; Claim you have at least 20 dives in said Specialty, have 25 certs under your belt and pay your fee. You do not have to pay the fee for MSDT to start picking up Specialty Instructor ratings, just the 25 certs.

The above information does not include Cavern, Rebreather, Dry Suit and Ice, which may or may not have additional requirements.

 

[cjibber]

The insurance is going to cover you so long as you are diving within the limits of the policy. If the policy clearly states that you can not exceed the depth limits of your highest level of certification then the answer is clear, what ever your highest depth rated certification is, that is your limit.

The question should be what is YOUR highest level of certification regarding "depth".

I agree with what you are saying. So given that I am a DM but do not have the Deep Speciality, what depth am I certified to dive to? What is "the depth limits of my highest level of certification"?

 

[Splash-X]

I am by no means a PADI expert, after all I'm not certified by the agency.

Based on the information offered by PAID (Divemaster Courses - Lessons, Training, Tips & Professional Careers - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization) for the DM course, you had to have completed AOW, Rescue, Emergency First Response/Second Care (CPR, First Aid, etc).

So, based on that information I beleive your highest raiting to be AOW. I don't have access to PAID training standards and I can only go by what is avalaible on the PAID website (which is nothing) and what many others on the board have posted regarding AOW for PADI.


Based on the information I've see, 30M is the limit to AOW. Expanding to deep diving specality increases that depth to 40M.

So, someone with AOW = 30M, someone with Deep Diver = 40M.

From a practical standpoint, dive as deep as you are trained for, comfortable with and desire to.... just keep in mind that as a dive professional you should never exceede the training standards when leading other divers. When you're working, stick to the standards.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Splash-X, you seem to be confusing Standards with recommendations. In many courses and for diving with Jr. Divers or Scuba Divers there are hard Depth Limit Standards, but for recreational dives or leading recreational dives PADI only recommends not exceeding 60' (OW Divers), 100' (AOW Divers) and 130' (Deep Specialty).

Every day guides without the Deep Specialty are guiding fresh OW Divers below 100' (and more) without violating Standards.

 

[Splash-X]

Splash-X, you seem to be confusing Standards with recommendations. In many courses and for diving with Jr. Divers or Scuba Divers there are hard Depth Limit Standards, but for recreational dives or leading recreational dives PADI only recommends not exceeding 60' (OW Divers), 100' (AOW Divers) and 130' (Deep Specialty).

Every day guides without the Deep Specialty are guiding fresh OW Divers below 100' (and more) without violating Standards.

You're taking my comments out of context.



Q:

I am in the same position i.e a DM without doing the Deep Speciality. My insurance states that I am insured to dive as long as I do not exceed the depth that I am certified to dive to. I have been told by many people that this is 40m but can not find anything that confirms this officially. Do I need to do the Deep Speciality to be able to go to 40m and still be covered by my insurance or am I already covered to 40m?

A: The insurance is going to cover you so long as you are diving within the limits of the policy. If the policy clearly states that you can not exceed the depth limits of your highest level of certification then the answer is clear, what ever your highest depth rated certification is, that is your limit.



Q: I agree with what you are saying. So given that I am a DM but do not have the Deep Speciality, what depth am I certified to dive to? What is "the depth limits of my highest level of certification"?

A: Deep Diver certification allows you to dive to 40M. Advanced Open Water allows you to dive to 30M


I personally don't care how many trip leaders take people to 40M, 50M, 60M, 100fsw, 130fsw. The question is to what depth can you dive. To be covered by your insurance policy your maximum depth is that in which you were trained to dive to.

Just like ANYTHING, if you don't abid by the rules set forth in your insurance policy your policy is null and void. As a DM, he must carry a valid liability policy to cover any accidents that occure.


There is a reason dive operators require a AOW card to do deep dives..... and if you're on a trip with a place that doesn't care what your skills are then that operator is engaging in careless behavoir.

As a Dive Leader it is your responsibility to care for the divers that have been placed in your care. Letting a diver who has little to no experience with diving beyond say 60ft have no business being lead by a DM to a depth beyond that in which they were trained for.


If you as a DM decide to have a fun day and you and a friend head out on a charter and you're not working the trip, do what ever you want.... but if you're involved in leading the trip then you better follow the guide lines set forth by your training and those set forth by your insurance.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I guide/instruct for/from a couple boats (different companies) and my instructor insurance is covered by shop policies the boat operators keep (I'm listed by name). They also have dive boat insurance. When there is a standard it has to be followed, like 40' max depth for Jr. Divers or Scuba Divers. When there isn't a standard, only recommendations, things are not so black and white.

I have been told by more than one dive boat owner that the insurance covers recreational divers making recreational dives. Another operator pointed out that even 130' is listed as a recommendation and the PADI tables go to 140'.

There are three solid possibilities in my eyes; many people are full of $h!t, insurance is different here, just 'cause they tell ya' they can't because of the insurance it doesn't really mean they can't because of the insurance. I think at least two of those are correct.

 

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

Interesting that no one seems to know the definitive answer to this.

I had never given it much thought before as I don't that often dive deeper than 30m but nevertheless how many DMs/Instructors have actually even ever taken the Deep Speciality?