40m without deep specialty?

[Splash-X]

Maybe it's been left in Basic Scuba because the subject is guiding basic scuba divers, no?

Since you are not trained by PADI, what fact was it again that you contribute?

So, you don't feel a real answer could come from a PADI Instructor/Guide who has guided divers beyond their recommended training depth for 8 years and 7 out of 7 employers, at my employers and customers mutual request. I only knows of a few operators in Hawaii who have AOL required trips in print anymore and most will overlook it with a little negotiation (not all).

The majority of this topic is not about the "basic scuba divers", most of the information is questions being asked by dive leaders.

You obviously have an issue with me, its apparent with your attitude. I may not agree with you but I have shown you no disrespect.

I never said you didn't have a "real answer". I said that there hasn't been any clear answer.

Unless you are the underwrite for his insurance policy or someone acting in offical capacity from PADI then I myself wouldn't take your word as concrete evidence. This is nothing personal.

If you as a diver want to go to 40M or 50M, thats your decision. If you're leading other divers to 40M or 50M you better have the training, skills, equipment, and experience to do so. If you're asking yourself if you "should" be taking someone to 40M chances are you are lacking the experience or the training to do so.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The majority of this topic is not about the "basic scuba divers", most of the information is questions being asked by dive leaders.

Are you saying basic scuba divers would have no interest in how their instructors/guides are certified to teach/guide to deeper and deeper depths? Or maybe even how instructor/guides feel about these kinds of aspects of the job?

You obviously have an issue with me, its apparent with your attitude. I may not agree with you but I have shown you no disrespect.

It's been a couple hours but I can say without a doubt that I have no issue with you; I don't know you. I do have issues with the things and way you posted in this thread. That is one of the interactions common to forums; people often have issues with what other people post.

I never said you didn't have a "real answer". I said that there hasn't been any clear answer.

Unless you are the underwrite for his insurance policy or someone acting in offical capacity from PADI then I myself wouldn't take your word as concrete evidence. This is nothing personal.

I am a card carrying dues paying PADI OWSI and I'm not always proud of that fact; recommended depths are 60' with OW Diver, 100' for AOW and 130' with additional deep training. Notice the word recommended, even applying to 130'. This is nothing personal.

 

[JonBath]

Did you or did you not knowingly accept certification to a level that you have not yet received the training required?

No, because I haven't finished my crossover procedure yet. My question was when I do would that qualification provide 'appropriate training' in PADI's eyes so I don't have to shell out for the extra deep speciality cert card simply because Dive leader isn't a PADI course, just as PADI don't seem to give credit to instructors coming from other agencies, everyone has to do the IDC. It's not a difficult question to understand.

You've answered my question in a way though. I'd never go on a deep dive with an ass like you, regardless of training.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I think the real problem lies in the fact that PADI has somehow changed the dictionary definition of "master" to something altogether different.

How can anyone be Dive Master or Master Diver with out MASTERING the recreational environment?

Seems to me that only actual diving course should count towards that sort of certification, and we can leave a few these out.


PADI Boat Diver
PADI Coral Reef Conservation and Awareness
PADI Fish Identification
PADI Marine Life Injuries (treatment and prevention)
PADI National Geographic Diver
PADI Night Diver
PADI Project Aware
PADI River Diver
PADI Underwater Naturalist Diver - Fresh Water
PADI Underwater Naturalist Diver - Salt Water
PADI Underwater Naturalist Diver - Non Diver Really?
PADI Underwater Modeling
PADI Underwater Photographer
PADI Underwater Videographer

Who claims to be a divemaster with Fish ID Naturalist1 and 2 Modeling and Photography?

 

[JonBath]

Not many DM's I imagine, especially since no specialities are required to be a Divemaster. I think you're thinking of Master Scuba Diver, the top of Padi's amateur rankings which requires 5, although the specialities are in general a waste of money.

You're right though, the only way to 'master' the dive environment comes with experience not simply a few supposed speciality courses. The point at which that comes is going to be different for everyone though. PADI officially says 60 dives minimum. At 60 dives I'd like to believe I was a competent, self-reliant and safe diver, thanks to good instructing, good training and a challenging work environment. I've seen plenty of AOW divers, with a few hundred dives all over the world, that are frankly liabilities simply because they've never had the appropriate training to move them up to the next level. Furthermore most DM courses are often open ended, especially in places like where I did mine. Like in any diving activity you're supposed to be the final decision maker over your dive activity and not qualify as a DM until you personally, with appropriate guidance from an instructor, feel you've 'mastered' the skills required. The problem here isn't the quality of the DM's but the convoluted recommendations and standards PADI requires it's members to follow.

 

[Gilldiver]

The whole Dive Master thing can become a joke, most of them are just guides and don't run a dive at all.

I just don't care at all what your cards says, I care what you have done. A Dive Masters cert only means that you have passed the first test to see if you are qualified for the job.

Answer these two questions:

How can a certified Dive Master who has only dived in warm clear waters in the Caribbean or Florida be qualified to lead dives on cold water, limited vis dives on a US North East or Northern European wreck?

How can a certified Dive Master who has only dived in the US North East or Northern Europe be qualified to lead a dive in US West Coast swell and surf deep beach entry dives?

In any system I see out there today, if you are a Dive Master, you are a DIVE MASTER all over the world. I don't buy that in any way, shape, or form. Any Dive Master who thinks that is a danger to themselves and any divers under their nominal control. Once you get out of your training and normal dive environment, you are a newbe all over again in some shape or form.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Not many DM's I imagine, especially since no specialities are required to be a Divemaster. I think you're thinking of Master Scuba Diver, the top of Padi's amateur rankings which requires 5, although the specialities are in general a waste of money.

You're right though, the only way to 'master' the dive environment comes with experience not simply a few supposed speciality courses. The point at which that comes is going to be different for everyone though. PADI officially says 60 dives minimum. At 60 dives I'd like to believe I was a competent, self-reliant and safe diver, thanks to good instructing, good training and a challenging work environment. I've seen plenty of AOW divers, with a few hundred dives all over the world, that are frankly liabilities simply because they've never had the appropriate training to move them up to the next level. Furthermore most DM courses are often open ended, especially in places like where I did mine. Like in any diving activity you're supposed to be the final decision maker over your dive activity and not qualify as a DM until you personally, with appropriate guidance from an instructor, feel you've 'mastered' the skills required. The problem here isn't the quality of the DM's but the convoluted recommendations and standards PADI requires it's members to follow.

I find it ridiculous to assume the title of either without the regulating agency requiring all pertinent diving skills to be mastered. Seems PADI deep would be one of those. It's not a knock on the diver who may very well be capable.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

The whole Dive Master thing can become a joke, most of them are just guides and don't run a dive at all.

I just don't care at all what your cards says, I care what you have done. A Dive Masters cert only means that you have passed the first test to see if you are qualified for the job.

Answer these two questions:

How can a certified Dive Master who has only dived in warm clear waters in the Caribbean or Florida be qualified to lead dives on cold water, limited vis dives on a US North East or Northern European wreck?

How can a certified Dive Master who has only dived in the US North East or Northern Europe be qualified to lead a dive in US West Coast swell and surf deep beach entry dives?

In any system I see out there today, if you are a Dive Master, you are a DIVE MASTER all over the world. I don't buy that in any way, shape, or form. Any Dive Master who thinks that is a danger to themselves and any divers under their nominal control. Once you get out of your training and normal dive environment, you are a newbe all over again in some shape or form.

Agreed

 

[JonBath]

I find it ridiculous to assume the title of either without the regulating agency requiring all pertinent diving skills to be mastered. Seems PADI deep would be one of those. It's not a knock on the diver who may very well be capable.

I agree, but under the strange PADI rules 30m would be considered the maximum depth of most recreational divers (ie without the deep speciality). Thus it would have been perfectly possible to master the recreational environment without doing the deep speciality as a DM.

I still think it would have been a good idea though, perhaps folding it into the DM course along with nitrox and deco diving, like in BSAC. On the other hand it would raise questions about other supposed specialities and their role in mastering environment. Would anyone seriously consider the possibility that a DM had to be profficient in ice, cavern, cave, wreck, drysuit, rebreather, trimix and whatever else you can think of before he was considered a 'master' of the dive environment and could lead his charges on that difficult 18m reef dive in 30 degrees c. Clearly it's not ever going to be practical.

Once you get out of your training and normal dive environment, you are a newbe all over again in some shape or form.

Couldn't agree more. I've just started drysuit diving after years as a warm water wuss. It's been eye-opening to say the least.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I agree, but under the strange PADI rules 30m would be considered the maximum depth of most recreational divers (ie without the deep speciality). Thus it would have been perfectly possible to master the recreational environment without doing the deep speciality as a DM.

I still think it would have been a good idea though, perhaps folding it into the DM course along with nitrox and deco diving, like in BSAC. On the other hand it would raise questions about other supposed specialities and their role in mastering environment. Would anyone seriously consider the possibility that a DM had to be profficient in ice, cavern, cave, wreck, drysuit, rebreather, trimix and whatever else you can think of before he was considered a 'master' of the dive environment and could lead his charges on that difficult 18m reef dive in 30 degrees c. Clearly it's not ever going to be practical.

Some of those don't even pretend to be recreational specialties but you did hit on the problem. PADI has a hard time defining commonly approved definitions. Recreational limits by most accounts is 130 feet, PADI has seen fit to change that as well.

Couldn't agree more. I've just started drysuit diving after years as a warm water wuss. It's been eye-opening to say the least.