Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

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Ben is a friend of mine as well. Sure a few things that have been said have annoyed me but I've also learned so much from reading the thread. It is hard being in TN while everything is happening in FL. We only get bits and pieces of information.

I want to thank everyone who has helped with the recovery.

*Actions do speak louder than words.....
 
It also seems at least reasonable that if the key was in fact given to him and that if he was not certified to have it, that the owner now recognizes the liability of giving it to him and would be vehemently denying having done so.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I do know the following for sure...

Every time ANY diver goes into the water, he or she is the person responsible for his or her actions.

I am not just talking about going into a cave, I am talking about jumping off of a dive boat in the Caribbean, walking into the sea from a sandy beach, giant striding off a dock into a quarry, or walking down the steps into a spring like what Ben did.

Each diver is responsible for his own dive, each and every time he gets into the water. That is a fundamental rule of diving that a lot of non-divers are just not aware of.

We each decide what our dive plans are going to be, we each decide if our dive is appropriate for our certification levels. We each decide if the water conditions are within our limits, if we enough air to dive our plan... etc...

However Ben got past that gate, the simple fact of the matter is he CHOSE to get past that gate. Nobody forced him to do it. There was not a gun to his head. It was a choice, just like when I dove Vortex a couple weeks ago I chose not to leave the light zone and go beyond my level of training by doing so...

Let me tell you a quick story, since you haven't been there. In Vortex, the front of the cavern leads down to the Reaper (which you saw pictured earlier in this thread). That reaper is positioned next to a wide tunnel that is filled with some really cool wildlife (eels, fresh water critters of several descriptions, etc) and is EXTREMELY inviting to go down. I admit it, I was tempted to go down the tunnel, and around the corner to see the next room. But... that would take me out of the light zone, and I am only Cavern certified. It was not part of my dive plan, so I dove the plan we had made and I became determined to GET THE TRAINING that will allow me to take it to the next level.

That's how it is done.

That doesn't make me or anybody else a better person than Ben, but it does mean that I have a LOT better chance of coming up our of that cave than somebody whose dive plan is to go far, far beyond his level of training and certification.

Whether the gate was open or not, the simple fact is he should have not been AT the gate in the first place, let alone through it. He chose to go through the gate, he planned to go through it and he did. Was that a wise plan? No. But he went in there, knowing that is what he was going to do.

I am sorry for what happened to Ben, and I am somewhat in awe of the talents and skills of the community of people who are trying to recover his body... but my feelings or anybody else's feelings doesn't change this simple fact:

Irregardless of the quality of the person out of the water, he CHOSE to broke several of the cardinal rules of diving in a cave, he CHOSE to go a place he wasn't trained or equipped for, he CHOSE to go past the gate (however it happened) that he had no business going through, and he unfortunately didn't make it back out of Vortex cave.

We all make our choices when we dive, every one of us. These threads here are Scubaboard are here not because divers are a bunch of ghouls, quite the contrary. We, to a person, HATE to see people die while diving. We do this so that we can understand what happened, and to help ourselves and everybody who reads this make better choices in our own diving in the future.
 
The difference is that his actions are now putting others lives at risk....


you need to step back and take a big look at that.

and any time you go into a cave yours will be as well as I am confident you will not be entering that cave with the intent of not leaving it. If you don't leave it then others will be in peril when they put their lives in danger to find you but hopefully for your family and your friends the comments on this board will not attack you personally nor will they attack the friends who defend you.

Stop trying to defend your friend's actions..

I think I'm speaking for the group when I say we are not condemning Ben. We are condemning his actions.

Regardless of whether he broke into the cave or not, he wasn't certified to do the dives he has been doing. What he did was stupid and had far reaching consequences. Attempting to defend stupidity is futile and only makes things worse!

If Mike S. has the certifications that I do then chances are he won't need to be recovered from a cave that he wasn't qualified to dive.
 
Every one of my orafices puckered. I have no doubt that is something I'll never do.

Mine too... I gotta admit when she started crawling through that crack a little over two minutes in when she was in that flow, my pucker factor was off the charts.

Y'all go ahead and do that one, I think I will stick to something that looks less like a cork in a bottle.
 
Cave Diver, thank you again. I know you are truly trying to be informative. The only point I am making here is that your friend who was on the dive, and who should be raised up on the shoulders of giants for risking his own life, only saw what was below. He could not have been present when the key was exchanged nor did he hear the owner of vortex state that she had given the key. The lock may have been "jimmied" but it also may not have been Ben who did it. This doesn't mean Ben should have been down there.

While I'm sorry for your loss, I fail to see the importance (from a legal liability perspective or otherwise) regarding whether or not he manipulated the gate or retrieved a key.

I imagine everyone diving vortex is well aware of why a gate in any form exists - in addition to the obvious perils of this sort of diving that are made aware to anyone who goes through an open water course, the gate is a signal that dangerous territory awaits. Ben knew that, and he chose to ignore it. Your references to potential legal negligence in this thread I find to be unacceptable - please keep them out.

Sadly, i have no doubt there will be a lawsuit to follow, likely with a settlement to avoid a costly trial (regardless of merits). The end result may very well be that an establishment enjoyed by many who were much more considerate of their peers is damaged by the actions of a person who (in this instance) was far less considerate of his peers.

Feel free to PM me if you take issue with what I say, no need to further burden the board with this.
 
Cave Diver, thank you again. I know you are truly trying to be informative. The only point I am making here is that your friend who was on the dive, and who should be raised up on the shoulders of giants for risking his own life, only saw what was below. He could not have been present when the key was exchanged nor did he hear the owner of vortex state that she had given the key. The lock may have been "jimmied" but it also may not have been Ben who did it. This doesn't mean Ben should have been down there, I think that is beyond obvious now, but there is a difference in a man willing to break a lock and leave others in danger as a opposed to a man who went where he should not have gone and I think that measure is willful intent. I for one would be much less angry with a man who knowingly walks through my gate and drowns in my pool than with a man who sees the lock on my gate, breaks it and then drowns in my pool. I would almost want to express that he got what he deserved and this distinction is what is raising the passions and opinions of the posters on this forum. If Ben didn't willfully break it then he is not quite the same person that some are saying, he is simply a guy who made a tragic mistake and overestimated his ability not a given given to careless disregard for human life.
Well, see this is where its touchy. The lock was not touched but I will not mention any specifics I know about it. I do think details were posted earlier. It makes no difference to me wether he had the key, broke the lock or tore the gate down. This kind of Foolishness has to stop. Yeah I take it personally when someone without the credentials does this. Its situations like this that causes access to caves to be harder to get. Like I said, we know how you feel, but if I die this weekend it will look a lot better than an untrained person in a cave.
 
And your obviously looking for a scapegoat... Throwing words like liability and employee around.

Do you have anything to contribute to what is known about this incident? Or are you just performing damage control...?

Do I have anything to contribute, is that your question? Damage control is done by people trying to limit damage, for Ben's family the damage is done. I don't work for the spring and if anyone would be doing damage control it would be them.
 
Shouldn't even need to be a gate
The owner isn't liable for a darn thing this diver did
The diver alone is responsible
Many caves don't have gates some may not have signs, this cave had both and reaching for errors in process reflects a belief in not taking personal responsibility

It's usually families whose pain overshadows their intimate knowledge of risky pursuits that cause lawyers to look for others contributions because the pain of loss is too great. I can only hope that this guys family understands his nature and respects his decision to take everything into his own hands and doesn't lash out at others who really couldn't stop him anyway...the community to receive the lashings is made of the same brave folks giving their time to look for him in a scary winding place right now...just food for thought.
 
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