Age 10 Seems Too Young for Certification

[knowone]

In ten feet of water, there is plenty to see and skills to learn
and fears to overcome at the beach, in a child of any age,
without having to wait until adulthood, follow "the rules"
and convince oneself there is anything to learn post class
in ten feet of water in a chlorine infested swimming pool.

And there are many children able to express and fulfil
a passion than there are adults able to do anything.

Unless your future diving entails diving in ten feet of water.

 

[adurso]

Anybody know anything about aseptic bone necrosis and the epiphyseal plate?

Interesting; no one has bit on this bait....

Aseptic bone necrosis is seen in commercial divers with many many dives. There has been concern that pressure will negatively effect the epiphyseal plate resulting in growth issues. There have been no studies (naturally)

Harris and others base much of their argument upon Jean Piaget's theory of cognitive development. According to Piaget children at age 10 are moving out of the preoperational stage, characterized by intuitive responses, and into the concrete operational stage, characterized by the use of logic, but an inability to process problems in an abstract manner.

The problem with this is that the are no absolutes in cognitive development; more recent studies indicate a continuum based upon contextual influences yielding maturation in various domains at various times.

Children move at their own pace; some are ready to dive, with proper supervision, at ten; others are not ready at thirty.

I was diving very young with but these instructions:"never hold your breath", "pinch your nose and gently blow before going under, and do it every few feet until you are where you want to be" "when it is hard to breathe pull the lever""do not ascend faster than your smallest bubble" and I, along with many others am fine well into my 50s

Each child should be judged individually, by parent and instructor, together; with both aware of potential negative outcomes.

And due to the potential for growth plate issues depth, duration, type, and number of dives per year should be considered as well.

Most importantly a parent with a diving child must realize that they are effectively diving solo.

The payoff is, as others have mentioned, watching the wonder unfold for a child who is seeing the underwater world open up to them....

 

[explorer08]

While going through the postings of the promoters of children diving, I could find some red line.

First point is that there may be some children being able to master diving at the age of ten.
Second point is that each child should be judged individually, by parent and instructor, together; with both aware of potential negative outcomes.

First, of course in most cases the kids of the contributors have been amongst this minority.
Second, I guess nearly everybody knows an example of parents overburdening their children, because they want them something to be or to do, they never are or never want and the children do it, because they want to please their parents.
And third, instructors, at least as they are working (semi)professional, are under the pressure to earn money. So if they reject training and certifying and child entitled to dive by the standards of their agency, they simply loose money. And what is more, they loose this money for nothing, because these customers just have to go to the next instructor and always, sooner or later, they will find one who is doing the job, because the money is his only interest. And that is why I am pleading for a lift of the minimum age by the agencies. IMHO it is more important to protect the majority of youngsters not able to manage it than to give a small minority the chance to do it.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Could you please show us some statistics of 10-11y/o diver problems that support your plead?

 

[bracko]

timely that this thread should be here after my weekend, i was actually coming to the "going pro" forum to start a similar thread....

I DM'd in the pool on saturday and in the ocean on sunday (different groups). there was a boy aged 12 years old in each group surrounded by mainly adults (although sunday's boy had his 14yo brother.

the difference was chalk and cheese. the boy on satuday "couldn't" put the wetsuit on his father just bought him, making the instructor and me to get this poor kid into it...

he watched the instructor setup the gear then couldn't do it himself, after me re-showing him completely (twice) still couldn't (wouldn't perhaps) set his gear up on his own.

geared up and in the water he fell behind after the first skill requiring me to practice the skills with him then have the instructor witness his demonstration. 3 times he could do it with me then couldn't (in a major way) do it with the instructor. mask removal he did it first time perfectly, then had to be re-shown 10 times... that concerned me!


2 hours into it he was just a mess, his weightbelt had fallen off about 6 times [he still had a lot of 'puppy fat' which makes life a lot harder], he refused to help us when we put it back on, refused to master the skill of doing it himself (he didn't even have the core muscle to stop the tank rolling when he was floating on his stomach) and he was asking when lunch was.

in my opinion, not being a father or a fan of kids, I believe (contrary to his father's opinion of him being very bright) he lacked the cognitive ability and logical thought processes to understand what is required when you are in the open water and diving and something the father did admit was that he was a bit clumsy, but clearly he also lacked the strength to dive. if i was the instructor i would have been having a serious chat with the father about whether diving was for him yet...

result: kid is coming in 3 afternoons with the instructor for one on one...I also get the feeling that the father is pushing him into the sport, so it's hard to gauge if he just doesn't want to be there either...

fast forward to the next day, the 12 yo kid was quiet but around adults although I would be as well at that age! he didn't interact with his brother that much (they were separated from being buddies) but since they both were native dutch speakers, didn't talk much to the rest of the group either. they seemed to master the skills easily, while the boy probably lacked the strength to dive, he did use his brain to overcome his physical strength issue on his OWN (instead of asking me to do everything for him) he could relate the skills we were doing to how one might use them in diving or an emergency (CESA, mask removal, navigation) very well. there were a few problems which could have been language related, he missed the point of making up a dive plan... but hey he can't go diving without an adult who will form the plan for him anyway...

so, the point to this very long post... all kids are indeed different, and as the article on the first or second page suggests, to consider psychological and physiological aspects to youth and diving.... IMO, the learning and cognitive ability of the child is far more crucial than the strength or physiological issues surrounding kids and diving.

 

[explorer08]

bracko, thank you very much for your detailed report.
First of all, in this thread we are mainly talking about diving with 10 years old, while your examples are with 12 years old. But that doesn’t matter.

Your report shows both sides of the medal and it also shows that even 12 years old may be too young for diving.

After more than 20 years of experience as a diving instructor, my personal experience is that your first example represents the vast majority, at least amongst 10 years old, while your second example stands for a small minority in this group.
And, of course, the older they become, the more the relation is shifting to the other side.
From my experience I would say with 10 it’s about 80/20 that they are not able to master it, with 12 it’s about 50/50 and with 14 it may be about 20/80.

I absolutely agree with your conclusion, but my point is that I don’t want the decision left to the instructors, because of the reasons I mentioned in my post from yesterday 11:18 AM.

And fortunately here in Turkey, were I am living and working, scuba diving with minors below 14 is forbidden by law. That prevents me from a lot of uncomfortable discussions.

 

[knowone]

Smart Country.

 

[Walter]

May be that you are true, but please understand that I am talking from a european point of view and the agencies mentioned by you have been nearly unknown in Europe at that time. And when I started with PADI in 1988 their minimum age was 14 as well.

Europe has requirements that are not part of agency standards, but they do require agencies to follow them. An example is Europe requires divers to be able to swim, PADI does not. When teaching a PADI class in Europe, swimming is required. PADI has no such requirement (they allow substituting snorkeling for swimming, although they do call it swimming, when teaching in areas without such a requirement) but they still have to follow that European requirement in Europe. PADI's minimum age in 1988 was 12, if Europe has a requirement that all SCUBA students must be at least 14, PADI would follow that requirement in Europe.

 

[Drewski]

LOL, Dumpster, you just KNEW I was going to bite on this thread didn't you? Man, when I get down to Florida next time, I so gotta go diving with you on that boat!

For the rest of you, a disclaimer. If you have a 10 year old and are uncomfortable with him or her diving, PLEASE don't take them or force them to go. PLEASE don't coerce them through demonstration and positive (or negative) enticement.

That said, a few observations. Young olympic athletes who win gold medals start training at 6 years old or less. They have drive and ambition to succeed and are often placed in risky and high pressure situations. Mozart wrote some of his best work as a kid. Bobby Fischer amazed the world. Tiger Woods won the Junior World Golf Championship 6 times, the first time when he was 8 entering in the 9-10 year old class. Been to a skate park lately? Ever watch ESPN's X-Games? Many children enjoy doing difficult or even dangerous stuff that lots of adults can't or won't do. Does that mean they shouldn't do them? Obviously NOT.

As an instructor, I've certified hundreds of people. About 100 of them have been kids between the ages of 10 and 14. NAUI had a 12 year old standard going back to 1975 but allowed instructors to request age exemptions by letter. I did this no less than 5 times and they were always granted. For anyone who knew him, Walt Hendrick approved all of these certifications personally. I don't know where the "14 year old" PADI "standard" came from in this thread because I was certified PADI JR Open Water at 12 in 1975 (had to dive with an adult) and that converted to Open Water when I turned 15.

What I've learned about young children and diving during all of this time is that the ones who are serious about it and want to do it become some of the best divers in the world. Unlike adults who often experience fears that cloud judgement, kids look at stuff much more objectively underwater. In truth, there are very FEW things that can harm kids if they know and follow the rules. I've started 5 year olds in my hot tub on long hoses and I've routinely allowed 6 year olds to pool dive fully geared (all these kids are family, NOT in a class, before you ask). I have NO PROBLEM diving with kids that are GOOD divers in the 10 to 12 year old range within NDLs, to about 100 FT, provided the conditions are right for the kid's experience and they enjoy doing it. I always dive "team," at least 2 adults in the group.

Does that mean every kid can do the same thing? Of course not. The kid that had the mask clearing problem in this thread did NOT want to dive, plain and simple. I've seen that many times, because it's dad or mom WANTING the child to learn, not the kid WANTING to dive.

Don't underestimate the ability of children. The problem with doing that is that is we begin to expect less from them and often end up getting exactly what we asked for. Invest in your kids. Do STUFF with them instead of letting them live virtually on the PS3. Let them experience some risk so they know how to handle it as they grow older. I take kids diving, climbing, backpacking and camping. Twenty years from now, ask your son or daughter what they liked and remembered best from your time with them as mom or dad.

I'll bet I can tell you what my kids will say...

 

[tyesai]

\And fortunately here in Turkey, were I am living and working, scuba diving with minors below 14 is forbidden by law. That prevents me from a lot of uncomfortable discussions.

They have traffic laws in Turkey but that doesn't seem to matter, who needs lanes, traffic lights or speed limits.

I loved Turkey, I loved the culture, the food, the history, the people, I'm trying to figure out how to get back, maybe as a school teacher for one of the military bases. The language was tough for me though.

On topic.

I wouldn't want to have a ten year old as a dive buddy, I don't care how " mature " for their age they are. But I love the idea of getting the young ones in the water and getting them interested in the oceans, the animals, and the earth. If diving is a vessel for that then great! I'd love to see my kids do a bubblemaker class or equivalent when they get older. Then if they seem to be comfortable doing what they need to do then getting a dive card would be the next step, but at the same time, why rush it? Then again if they can then why not? I guess the answer is a simple one, it depends.

Now if I could only get my six year old to stop screaming shark when a little fish swims by. She gets it from her mom I think.